69 replies to this topic

[sokitumi]

except if pgi was inventing was chess -> new players would start with 16 pawns, hero knights would move an extra space and cost 30 dollars, and the balance would be 'needing another pass' (at all times).

wait YES this is fantastic idea! "F2P" MMO chess!

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 12 May 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

You have nothing left but projection in your corner. And borrowed tough-guy quotes and webcomics.

You show some smug little borrowed webcomic that has nothing to do with MWO because "look this guy is really skilled and the other guy is jelly, see see I am better than you and you are jelly" then you whine that I am apparently saying I am intellectually superior.

I made no such claim. Scroll up and check. On the other hand, I will say you're rhetorically bankrupt and are copying and borrowing more material (that has nothing to do with Mechwarrior Online whatsoever) than the average 4chan forum warrior.

Mechwarrior Online at its best will never be chess, and the tactics you try so hard (in the totally wrong way) to justify have nothing to do with chess or anything nearing it.

I'm not offended when people whine that I am 'trying' to sound intelligent. Try another tactic. Or better yet, don't. The tide's not in your favor.

...And you're still on Chess. I think Michael J Caboose would have a better shot at arguing your points for you.

Should I keep pointing out that you are wrong again in your interpretation of what I (and others) are saying? Or is it too hard for you to keep up with the conversation? It's really no wonder you have to stroke your ego with gems like this:

Neverfar, on 01 May 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

By "that guy" I mean that unwashed, unsavory, horrible, terribad person who is totally unskilled and dishonorable and with my scrub ways I can not help but cap-threat the enemy base.

Your account may have been created in June, but in March of this year you posted this:

Quote

Will our progress be wiped once more when the beta ends? Our skill points? C-Bills? Mechs?

How about stuff we purchased with MC? Do we get that back, at least?

I know nothing about this except what betas usually entail. Betas usually don't allow cash purchases, and only recently did I notice that little "beta" mark underneath the Mechwarrior Online logo.

Anyone have additional information here, links? I'd at least like to know before I get an unpleasant surprise.

I'll draw my point directly, so you don't mistakenly interpret something to do with chess or comics: You are still a newbie, you are still learning the game, you haven't been paying attention, and you are not nearly as learned at MWO or any of it's problems, solutions, or plans as you think you are.

Your lost stories of rhetoric and tide are just machinations of your imagination. If you actually applied reason, logic, and fact, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Stop trying to whip your "intellect" around your head like a churro. It's not working.

Edited by Syllogy, 13 May 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[Kaijin]

subgenius, on 09 May 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Nah, you did start it with a good old baseless acusation, but I'll admit I kept it up

Damn internet making it too easy to be unreasonable to other probably quite nice people...

The thing is though, casting people who disagree with you as "bloat boaters" makes it pretty hard to have a reasonable conversation. My personal favorite build is my 4ml gauss srm6 flame. Yet despite this I don't really want a major change to gameplay. Tune back the missles to somewhere between the extremes we've seen, add jump shake and let's see how things look. I don't buy what you're selling, but that hardly makes me some kind of evil boater who can't adapt.

When LRMs were relevant, the herd complained about screen shake, but some few knew it didn't matter. It was purely psychological because the crosshair was not effected at all. Jump shake will be the same. Tune back missiles? I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

[Kaijin]

Syllogy, on 13 May 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

...And you're still on Chess. I think Michael J Caboose would have a better shot at arguing your points for you.

Should I keep pointing out that you are wrong again in your interpretation of what I (and others) are saying? Or is it too hard for you to keep up with the conversation? It's really no wonder you have to stroke your ego with gems like this:



Your account may have been created in June, but in March of this year you posted this:



I'll draw my point directly, so you don't mistakenly interpret something to do with chess or comics: You are still a newbie, you are still learning the game, you haven't been paying attention, and you are not nearly as learned at MWO or any of it's problems, solutions, or plans as you think you are.

Your lost stories of rhetoric and tide are just machinations of your imagination. If you actually applied reason, logic, and fact, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Stop trying to whip your "intellect" around your head like a churro. It's not working.

I mostly agree with Neverfar, and you can't dismiss me as a newbie.

[Syllogy]

Kaijin, on 13 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

I mostly agree with Neverfar, and you can't dismiss me as a newbie.

Can you be more specific? What do you agree with him on?

[Kaijin]

Syllogy, on 13 May 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Can you be more specific? What do you agree with him on?

Newbies get annihilated way too quickly, often before they even get a chance to fire any weapons. They're supposed to be piloting heavily-armored death machines. This didn't happen in TT because of die rolls to hit and die rolls for random damage location. This wasn't as likely in most previous Mechwarrior titles because there were slot restrictions. This didn't happen in the novels because not only was there very little customization going on, but also because there was no magical convergence. Alphas were not standard practice, to be repeated over and over - They were the last resort.

Being able to boat more than two high damage long range direct fire weapon types, combined with easy aim and convergence, and the capability to fire this combo more often than once in a blue moon is a game balance blower. I suppose PIG could triple or quadruple the armor (it's already doubled), but that would render other weapons even more useless. Customization limitation isn't going to happen though. Nor is heat cap going to be lowered and dissipation increased. Why not? Because it would work.

There may be some holdouts, but Battletech and Mechwarrior fans have been abandoning MWO in droves. Most of us were here since early days. Closed Beta. Pre-Closed Beta even. And stayed for a good long while as beta testers. And while a portion of those probably jumped ship due to the out-of-control customization with no end to it in sight, a goodly portion left when it became crystal clear that PIG's screwed up interpretation of Guardian ECM was here to stay. It isn't the IP without a mixture of effective weapon types. I haven't played since January, but I've been here long enough to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff in the forums and see where the game's been going, and it has only gotten worse - not better. Coolant flush? REALLY? And there's the trust issue. PIG fed the fans a line. Told us what we wanted to hear to draw us in and milk us for Founder cash. "There will be no coolant flush." There's coolant flush. "There will be no 3rd person." There's going to be 3rd person. Soon there will be no more trial mechs, because even PIG has finally realized stock mechs are horribly crippled by their novel interpretation on how mechs should work.

I watched a youtube vid of a recent match. I was staring at the matchmaker screen for over two minutes before the match began. That doesn't speak massive numbers of players to me. If you were around in closed beta, you would have recalled there used to be a counter that displayed the number of players online. Used to be.

The chess analogy.

It both applies an doesn't apply, depending on who is the target. I disagree with both you and Neverfar.

For you, I don't have any experience in game design, but I've played a lot of them. I love chess and I love mechwarrior and I'm pretty good at both of them. I don't have any issues with chess being balanced. It is. Imbalance is only derived from the players. MWO is horribly imbalanced. I don't say this because I can't snipe someone across the map. I can. I don't say this because I've been repeatedly downed by massive LRM barrages. I haven't - even when LRMs were useful. I liked using LRMs myself when they were useful, but I've never been married to any particular weapon system or style of play. I've enjoyed all of them. Everything in moderation though, and variety is the spice of life.

So the chess analogy doesn't apply to me. It does however apply to those who have their pet style of play, and scream IMBALANCE if every aspect of the game doesn't cater exclusively to their particular play-style.

For Neverfar, True - we're not using identical pieces, but we should be using identical teams, or nearly so. Matchmaking should at the very least be based on tonnage and be restricted to a number of each class of mech per team. There should be pieces that are more valuable than other pieces, but these more valuable pieces wouldn't necessarily be the always the same every time. X can be good against Y and Z, in the right circumstances, but may also fail horribly against them in other circumstances. Likewise, W has it's uses. PIG was very enthusiastic about 'role-warfare' initially. Just one of many pillars that have fallen by the wayside. Roles are defined by significant differences, and with unlimited customization, there aren't many. Some mechs should be better than others in a given role, but without role matching (at least by weight class), there will of course be imbalance.

You've both been combative. You've both insulted each others' intelligence, which I neither agree nor disagree with.

I hate writing long posts on a game I've all but given up hope on. So I'm not going to proof-read this, or edit it, or likely participate further in this thread. I will only reiterate that people who do have a clue what they're talking about, and who have put in the time on MWO have left. People who had been waiting over a decade for something to be done with this IP, who supported PIG and sang their praises (confession of an ex-white knight), only to have their dream trodden on and their hopes dashed. And let's not forget the lousy treatment from PIG. The fan base is a "vocal minority."

[Syllogy]

You argue that people die too quickly, and that is unbalancing. I disagree for various reasons.

While this isn't chess, it is a game of skill. Disagree about that application of skill as much as you want, but your initial point is that some people (newbies in particular) get blown away very quickly. I argue that the reason behind this is the experience and skill of the shooter.

Just because it doesn't take 20 minutes to kill a single mech doesn't mean that the game is unbalanced.

By the way, the whole repeated "PIG" misspelling and "Wight (instead of White) Knight Trolls" thing gets old. It isn't distinguished and doesn't support any claim of unbiased opinions.

Whatever imagined slights you think have been "inflicted" on the game or it's players are exactly that... imagined.

[Glythe]

Neverfar, on 12 May 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

As usual for your type, you're blowing what I said way out of proportion and distorting it into a shape you can attack.

If you un-narrow your perspective outside of ELO and that web comic (which isn't even applying here that much to begin with), the pieces need not be equal in MWO, but they ought to have function and utility all the same, and generally the most reliable way to do that is to truly have no "best" piece but instead a "X is good against Y and Z, but W beats it every time even if its not so good against Z, and Y has a middling balance to all of them".

Usual for my type? I don't think I have a type but please continue.....

I read the comic and ignored the discussion about it because it is almost entirely irrelevant. If you insist on discussing chess we can go down that road but I'd rather not as again it is largely irrelevant to MWO.

Right now there is a best type and that happens to be sniping with jump jets (and snipers in general). You move around and make yourself a difficult target without hindering your aim much at all. You have weapons that can only be countered by the same weapon (a broken concept). Your weapons have so much pinpoint damage it is unlikely that a brawler type could ever get close enough to exploit your only disadvantage. And then of course if you play a group of the same mech with the same broken build you can ignore your only weakness completely. Or you can just use ERPPCs and once again ignore your only weakness completely. And if they run too hot you can use the cooldown expendable to once again ignore your only weakness.

I am in agreement that there must be no "best" type. For that to happen missiles have to be deadly but not 1 hit kill combos and sniper weapons need something to make them not be the go to easy mode weapon. That's why I suggested PPCs needed a fire delay mechanism. There are a myriad of other changes needed too but those would be a good start.

As a general note if you want your argument to have any weight at all you need to lay off the ad hominem attacks.

On the topic of experience and game design...... go look at Diablo 3 and you'll realize the people making that game live on another planet in terms of the world of their reality and the reality of the game everyone else plays. You could say the same for war thunder and world of tanks as well. The reality is that there are companies that exist to make good games not caring about the bottom line and there are companies that want to keep the paying customer on the hook as long as possible not caring if their game is fun. I can't code anything beyond basic but I have a decade of game experience logging tens of thousands of hours across a lot of different mmo type games. I do think I know a thing or two about making a game fun and balanced. What we have here right now with MWO happens to be neither.

[Farpenoodle]

Kaijin, on 13 May 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

This wasn't as likely in most previous Mechwarrior titles because there were slot restrictions.

What? I don't even.

[Dude42]

The game will be better when PPCs take up 5 slots(ERPPCs 6).

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 13 May 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

"Syllogy", like most spoiled immature types, wants it both ways here: he wants to bandy about the word "skill" a lot and any cheap thing he does in the game is "skillful" but if he doesn't like how you play it's not "skillful".

On the other hand, anyone who thinks his way of thinking is blunt, divisive and simplistic is "trying to sound smart" whatever the hell that means.

There's plenty of room to disagree and those that disagree here are fine. Except Syllogy. He's a raging, arrogant manchild and he's digging his hole deeper with each post.

Sorry, but when did i blather on about saying things I didn't like weren't "skillful" and when did I rage? And why are you insisting that I'm an "arrogant manchild"?

Sorry if I made you sniffle, newbie.

Oh wait, I get it. You're mad because you have trouble presenting valid arguments and I keep slapping down your half-baked responses and attacks.

Don't worry, it's probably because you aren't very adept at the game, it's mechanics, or the background itself. Give it time. Most new guys take at least 3-4 months to get caught up, so don't kick yourself.

Edited by Syllogy, 13 May 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Kaijin]

Syllogy, on 13 May 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

By the way, the whole repeated "PIG" misspelling and "Wight (instead of White) Knight Trolls" thing gets old. It isn't distinguished and doesn't support any claim of unbiased opinions.

Whatever imagined slights you think have been "inflicted" on the game or it's players are exactly that... imagined.

I spelled white correctly. Perhaps you saw 'wight' because you had prejudicial blinders on when you read my reply? As for PIG, it's it's more efficient and also less confusing than typing out PGI/IGP. PGI/IGP implies a boundary, but who is who really? There have been PGI Devs with Mod powers on this IGP forum, participating in disappearing threads. There have been IGP staffers telling us stuff only Devs should be telling us. Russ says PGI owns the IP. IGP says IGP owns the IP. Do they have joint ownership of the IP? So hopefully now you see, it's just easier to use PIG. I've got nothing against pigs. Do you?

Don't recall presenting myself as distinguished or unbiased either. Was that straw man of me you set up to knock down?

As for the slights, the things I could forward you, but then, I'd be banned for life. That's not imaginary. And I like to stop in on the train wreck every so often. See what my $110 is up to. See what my time and effort has devolved into.

P.S. Your profile is most impressive, Syllogy, what with the massive list of all the Battletech and Mechwarrior games you've been playing since the 90s. (Woo - Old School!) I have a correction for you. MPBT: Solaris was 3024. That was Kesmai's gig. I had the pleasure to work with that outstanding group of people as a GM and Community Manager before EA swallowed it up and aborted MPBT: 3025 not long after.

I just can't help continuing to edit this. MPBT: EGA was in 1992. You would have been 6 then, playing countless hours of it.

Edited by Kaijin, 13 May 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[Sephlock]

You forgot to mention knockdown. This is what should happen when a light shoots me in the back:

[Kaijin]

Sephlock, on 13 May 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

You forgot to mention knockdown. This is what should happen when a light shoots me in the back:

Yes. You are so right. I was remiss, and even if you were not referring to me, I was remiss anyway because I should have mentioned it.

[Sephlock]

And before anyone complains, lights won't only suffer from the reintroduction of knockdown and the implementation of a better collision system.



And that's not even touching on DFA...

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 13 May 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

It's condescending, sarcastic sniveling like this guy spits out constantly that will make me very happy when the inevitable nerfs come around.

My Heavy Metal bloat-boats as good as the rest of them, and I have done so on many occasions just to see what the fuss was about. You're either very dishonest or very deluded if you're convinced that it takes any skill™ to do that. You just want that comfortable little mechanic to stay just as you like it, but the tide isn't in your favor.

Let's see how well Syllogy "adapts" and "gets caught up". Maybe he'll borrow another web comic out of context.

Without turning into the red pen police, I feel like I should point out that your English teacher would have been a better janitor.

What mechanic are you referring to? Jump Sniping? Boating? Capping?

I don't jump snipe. I rarely cap. I do boat, but I have just as many mechs that don't.

If mechanics change, I will adapt, as I have done since Closed Beta. You haven't had a chance to adapt since you just started playing a little over a month ago.

You have not seen the changes that have taken place. and you have not experienced a completely different meta-game.

By the way. I'm from the part of the Midwest known as Tornado Alley. We don't have tides so whatever Californicated hobo-talk by saying "The tide isn't in your favor " is lost in translation.

Out here, we say "Looks like a tornado's brewin'", but that doesn't have anything to do with any sort of warning - in many cases, instead of taking shelter we'll grab the video camera and go hunting for the sumbitch.

Kaijin, on 13 May 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

As for PIG, it's it's more efficient and also less confusing than typing out PGI/IGP. PGI/IGP implies a boundary, but who is who really? There have been PGI Devs with Mod powers on this IGP forum, participating in disappearing threads. There have been IGP staffers telling us stuff only Devs should be telling us. Russ says PGI owns the IP. IGP says IGP owns the IP. Do they have joint ownership of the IP? So hopefully now you see, it's just easier to use PIG. I've got nothing against pigs. Do you?

train wreck every so often. See what my $110 is up to. See what my time and effort has devolved into.

PGI and IGP both licensed Battletech from Microsoft. Microsott still owns the IP when it comes to video games. Topps owns the IP when it comes to physical toys, and Catalyst owns the IP when it comes to printed literature. If I could blame anyone for the fragmented state of the IP, it would be Jordan Weisman, the founder of Fasa.

Kaijin, on 13 May 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

That was Kesmai's gig. I had the pleasure to work with that outstanding group of people as a GM and Community Manager before EA swallowed it up and aborted MPBT: 3025 not long after.

I just can't help continuing to edit this. MPBT: EGA was in 1992. You would have been 6 then, playing countless hours of it.

That's right, my father was one of Kesmai's Official Pilot Trainers for Air Warrior, and also hosted some of the annual conventions as well. I also played Kesmai's Air Warrior 2 and 3, as well as Interactive Creation's Warbirds. I've been playing video games since before I could color between the lines. I still remember Air Warrior when planes were just untextured flying gray boxes with wings.

Air Warrior and Battletech beat the hell out of Zelda and Super Mario Bros, so that's how I spent my childhood.

Edited by Syllogy, 14 May 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Belorion]

Echo6, on 09 May 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

The PPC bloat has to go, too. It's ridiculous.

It comes at an extreme price. There really isn't anything wrong with it.

[Belorion]

Sephlock, on 13 May 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

And before anyone complains, lights won't only suffer from the reintroduction of knockdown and the implementation of a better collision system.



And that's not even touching on DFA...

A reminder of exactly how bad the snes graphics and sound were?

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 14 May 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Posting your autobiography like it applies or matters in the slightest in a video game is pretty silly.

Also, you're not helping the Texan stereotype of being puffed up and having lots of hat and no cattle.

If you read the referenced quotes, you would understand why I said what I said.

However, you have still failed to properly define your Californicated Hobospeak about tides, and how it pertains to this thread.

Edited by Syllogy, 14 May 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Ohgodtherats]

So does stopping the poptart meta involve coming to my house and preventing me from eating them?