60 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Trauglodyte, on 11 May 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

You want to go faster because you just want to? Look, people need to quit trying to turn every mech into a gun toting Formula 1 racer. In TT, mechs were differentiated within with classes by loadout, weapon orientation, and speed. There is a reason why the Spider has so few weapons and it is because it was intended to be so blistering fast and maneuverable that you couldn't hit it. It is beyond pathetic that the Raven and the Jenner are as fast as the Spider because it just removes the primary benefit/design role behind the chassis.

I'd mind the engine limits less if we weren't besieged by slow mediums like the Cent and Hunch. In TT they're 4/6 movers. Meanwhile there's the plenty of 6/9/6 and 5/8/5 mechs around we aren't getting.

Edited by One Medic Army, 11 May 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[Crimson Fenris]

Currently the problem is mostly that imbalances are created by artificially limiting the max engines for each variant, instead of setting the same for all variants of the same chassis.

Never knew why the ravens didnt got the same max engine, as well for the centurion and cataphract... Why making "slow ones" and "fast ones" for the same capabilities ?
Its even harder to understand while most of the chassis come with the same engine limitations (commando, spider, cicada, jenner, hunchback, catapult, jagermech, stalker, atlas), and suddenly hop ! Smaller or bigger engine for a handful of them ?
What the point ?

Let the hardpoint layout and tonnage define the role of each one, not the maximum moutable engine.

[Trauglodyte]

The poor Hunchback is never going to be good. Well, none of the variants that aren't the SP and it is debatable how worthwhile that variant is. Its too slow and all but one of the variants is saddled by the "take out the right side and ignore it" issue. The Centurion, on the other hand, is plenty fast but is saddled by the autocannon weight issue. I guess that is why the A and AL series are so nice but are currently hindered by the missile nerf.

[Trauglodyte]

By the way, it should be noted that, and I'm assuming it is a balance choice made my PGI, engine weights for all sizes below 250 are currently underweight in MW:O, compared to the TT calculations, by anywhere between 0.5 tons and 6 tons. I built a spreadsheet the other day while I was, um, working (online gaming stats count as work, right?) and for engine sizes 250-400, everything matches up perfectly with the TT rules of engine+cockpit (3 tons)+gyro (engine rating/100 rounded up to the nearest half ton). But it starts to get too light when you drop below 250. The 100 engine, for example, is 1 ton in MW:0 but should be 7 tons.

[One Medic Army]

Trauglodyte, on 11 May 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

By the way, it should be noted that, and I'm assuming it is a balance choice made my PGI, engine weights for all sizes below 250 are currently underweight in MW:O, compared to the TT calculations, by anywhere between 0.5 tons and 6 tons. I built a spreadsheet the other day while I was, um, working (online gaming stats count as work, right?) and for engine sizes 250-400, everything matches up perfectly with the TT rules of engine+cockpit (3 tons)+gyro (engine rating/100 rounded up to the nearest half ton). But it starts to get too light when you drop below 250. The 100 engine, for example, is 1 ton in MW:0 but should be 7 tons.

They're not if you include the mandatory heatsinks.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Aint u light mechs satisfied with the current stupid speeds u can reach already ?! @.@

120-150kph packing Large weapons ..insane.

[One Medic Army]

ArmageddonKnight, on 11 May 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Aint u light mechs satisfied with the current stupid speeds u can reach already ?! @.@

120-150kph packing Large weapons ..insane.

150kph with large weapons is actually pretty hard.
My Jenner mounts 6ML, 5JJ, and a 295xl. That's 6tons of weapons.
I could replace that with 1 LL and 2 SL, which is nothing.

Think of it this way, the faster lights go, the less weapons they'll be carrying.

[Skadi]

One Medic Army, on 11 May 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

150kph with large weapons is actually pretty hard.
My Jenner mounts 6ML, 5JJ, and a 295xl. That's 6tons of weapons.
I could replace that with 1 LL and 2 SL, which is nothing.

Think of it this way, the faster lights go, the less weapons they'll be carrying.

They might not be large weapons, but the traditional Jenner-F is still deadly, the ML's arnt to be joked about.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Crimson Fenris, on 11 May 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Never knew why the ravens didnt got the same max engine, as well for the centurion and cataphract... Why making "slow ones" and "fast ones" for the same capabilities ?
Its even harder to understand while most of the chassis come with the same engine limitations (commando, spider, cicada, jenner, hunchback, catapult, jagermech, stalker, atlas), and suddenly hop ! Smaller or bigger engine for a handful of them ?
What the point ?

The engine rating limits are predicable and consistent. There is a range based on the stock engine rating of the variant, and there is a chassis-based cap reached by taking the tonnage of the mech and multiplying it by 8.5 (rounded up apparently). Only a few mechs currently hit the 8.5x limit, and those are all big-engine lights (Spiders, Jenners, and Cicadas, since the latter are basically lights anyway). I'm not sure about Commandos, but I think their base speed is just low enough that they don't quite hit the limit (they should be at a 215 rating by the 8.5x rule, but they seem capped at 210).

If the variant is slow, then the max engine rating is lower. If the variant is fast, then the max engine rating is higher. It's super simple, super straight-forward, and super easy to predict. There is neither arbitrariness nor randomness involved.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 11 May 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Zylo]

I'll support an increase in speed cap/engine size when we can knock lights down again and kill them when they are face down on the ground.

Edited by Zylo, 11 May 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

One Medic Army, on 11 May 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

They're not if you include the mandatory heatsinks.

Hrm, I'll have to look at it again and factor in the heat sinks. Good call, Army.

[ArmageddonKnight]

One Medic Army, on 11 May 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

150kph with large weapons is actually pretty hard.
My Jenner mounts 6ML, 5JJ, and a 295xl. That's 6tons of weapons.
I could replace that with 1 LL and 2 SL, which is nothing.

Think of it this way, the faster lights go, the less weapons they'll be carrying.

Ok i said 120-150 but lets stick with 150 for the 1st example. (all with 5xJJ's)

At 150kph you can fit 1x ERLL and 4x ML

At 143kph you can fit 2x ERLL.

At 122KPH yo u can fit 1x ERPPC and 4x ML +1DHS /or/ 6x MPL + 1DHS

A Cacada can run around at 133kph with 2 ERPPC's and an additional engine DHS

The amount of firepower and/or 'Large' long range weapons u can fit on fast mechs atm is insane...and u want to go faster ?! granted by going faster u would loose some firepower, but considering how much u can fit atm, thats still gunna be deadly.

[PLOG]

if this is truly Beta. Then it is about time they try to fix the speed, F waiting for the Flea and MASC, bad mech choice to begin with. They've certainly done enough in the past few patches to make lights less and less survivable, how about giving a little back?

ECM Spider drivers represent:P

mattPLOG

[ArmageddonKnight]

Lights can still easily punch way above their weight class so i dont see why u lot can be asking for more help.

If ur getitng destroyed in brawls ..well lights aint brawlers, atleats they aint meant to be, the current hardpoint system allows for enough firepower to brawl, and the double armor has givin light mechs some leway to get hit a few times more often than they should (ac20 to the face 'should' destroy u, but it doesnt),, but even still ..brawling is no place for lights mechs and if u complain about being killed in brawls .well thats just laughable.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 12 May 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[One Medic Army]

ArmageddonKnight, on 12 May 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Ok i said 120-150 but lets stick with 150 for the 1st example. (all with 5xJJ's)

At 150kph you can fit 1x ERLL and 4x ML

At 143kph you can fit 2x ERLL.

At 122KPH yo u can fit 1x ERPPC and 4x ML +1DHS /or/ 6x MPL + 1DHS

A Cacada can run around at 133kph with 2 ERPPC's and an additional engine DHS

The amount of firepower and/or 'Large' long range weapons u can fit on fast mechs atm is insane...and u want to go faster ?! granted by going faster u would loose some firepower, but considering how much u can fit atm, thats still gunna be deadly.

Yeah, those are with no extra heatsinks.
Those builds you just mentioned, they're stupid. Stupid bad.
Every one of them is undercooled severely, and most are low on armor as well.
You know why you almost never see light mechs with more than 1 Large Laser or 1 ERPPC? Because stacking Medium Lasers is just plain more effective.

Your first example, of 1 ERLL+4ML.
It's got 9 tons of weaponry, compared to my 6ML Jenner it's dropped every single extra DHS and it runs hotter. Do you have any idea how hot a 6ML Jenner runs? Your build is worse by an order of magnitude. It has a heat efficiency of 32%.

Next, 2 ERLL. 10 tons of weapons, heat efficiency of 43%, but only 1.82 sustained DPS. 6ML+13DHS has 40% heat efficiency, but 3 sustained DPS, and it goes faster.

Let's engage in a theoretical exercise now: A Spider mounting a 280xl engine with endosteel
151.2 kph pre tweak, 166.32kph after tweak.
It has 14.5 tons for armor, heatsinks and weapons.
6 of that for ferro armor (5.86 actually)
You get 8.5tons and 13 crits left, for your jumpjets and all weapons.
That's 1LL, 2ML, and 3 Jumps for example.
You could add a 4th jumpjet if you lost 13 pts of armor.

Same spider with a 310 engine (167.4kph/184.14kph)
5.5tons left for weapons, heatsinks, and jets, 6tons if you shave armor.
It's now pretty much restricted to MPL or lighter weapons.

That spider gained 10% speed boost at the cost of over 35% of it's useful tonnage.
And you think this is overpowered.

Please stop complaining just because you can't hit light mechs, please spend that energy learning to aim your lasers/PPCs.

Edited by One Medic Army, 12 May 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Deathlike]

Lights overheating due to trying to think they are mediums will get them killed more often than not.

[ArmageddonKnight]

You know, i was writing a long a*s response but instead just decided, ur just responding with the usual "ur only saying that becouse you suck" response which is straight up lame.
People need to stop asuming EVERYONE is biased to point of trying to get a game to be TOTAL unbalanced and leaning in favor for themselve. I am not that person.

I WANT a totaly fair balanced game. I just uninstalled the game for crying out loud becouse the current meta is sooo sh*t its not worth playing. I could simply join the rest of u and ether pick up a light mech, or go poptard /ppc boat. But i wont, becouse im not that kinda person, i prefer a fair balanced challenge. Not a OP romperstomp.

Just step back and think for one second without ur own personal (i pilot light mechs so i want light mechs to be better) attitude (or even i want light mechs nerfed becouse im a assualt pilot). Think how silly it will be with even faster mechs running to the oposing base within seconds of the start of a match. They are fast enough already. Same goes for those who think the current poptarting is fine, and those who think the hardpoint system is fine.

Use some logic ffs

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[One Medic Army]

ArmageddonKnight, on 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

You know, i was writing a long a*s response but instead just decided, ur just responding with the usual "ur only saying that becouse you suck" response which is straight up lame.
People need to stop asuming EVERYONE is biased to point of trying to get a game to be TOTAL unbalanced and leaning in favor for themselve. I am not that person.

I WANT a totaly fair balanced game. I just uninstalled the game for crying out loud becouse the current meta is sooo sh*t its not worth playing. I could simply join the rest of u and ether pick up a light mech, or go poptard /ppc boat. But i wont, becouse im not that kinda person, i prefer a fair balanced challenge. Not a OP romperstomp.

Just step back and think for one second without ur own personal (i pilot light mechs so i want light mechs to be better) attitude (or even i want light mechs nerfed becouse im a assualt pilot). Think how silly it will be with even faster mechs running to the oposing base within seconds of the start of a match. They are fast enough already. Same goes for those who think the current poptarting is fine, and those who think the hardpoint system is fine.

Use some logic ffs

I run all weights of mechs, look at my sig.
I used logic and examples, check my post.
Try running any of your supposed OP light builds, they're not as easy as you think they are.

Lights are going to be going past 150, it's coming along with the a flea and MASC, PGI has stated such.

[LethalMezzle]

No thanks, I don't want 200 KPH Commandos all over the place again.

On the other hand, the netcode is better than it was back when there was no Engine Cap, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad...

[Strum Wealh]

Durant Carlyle, on 10 May 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Right now, there are two restrictions in place.

There's the "role-based" restriction:
Lights = stock engine x 1.4
Mediums = stock engine x 1.3
Heavies and Assaults = stock engine x 1.2

...and the netcode-forced restriction:
Max engine = (8.5 x 'Mech tonnage)

The Spider should be able to go 183.6 kph with a 340 engine using the role-based limit, but it's currently hog-tied by the netcode-forced limit. The Jenner should be able to go 159.7 kph with a 345 engine using the role-based limit, but is also hamstrung by the netcode-forced limit. Those speeds are before any Speed Tweak bonus.

I don't agree at all with unrestricted engine sizes. Being a light that's unable to escape from mediums sucked royally. Especially since those mediums were designed to be slow in canon. If you are a class lighter than your pursuer, you should be able to outrun him automatically (unless he's in a 'Mech specially designed to go fast for its class, like a Cicada). It would be even worse now, since we have HSR.

I do agree with the netcode-forced limit removal, but the role-based limit should stay in place forever. Otherwise, what's the point of taking a light when a medium has more firepower, more armor, and is just as fast?

Agreed wholeheartedly!