339 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Aegis Kleais, on 06 June 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

I'm not going to let a person who spent an hour on a Mech sway my opinion of the Mech's capabilities. In the event a Mech is not performing as PGI envisioned, it can always be patched and adjusted down the line.

You will be influenced and you will like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AceTimberwolf]

Aegis Kleais, on 06 June 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

I'm not going to let a person who spent an hour on a Mech sway my opinion of the Mech's capabilities. In the event a Mech is not performing as PGI envisioned, it can always be patched and adjusted down the line.

True True. For the Most part in all honesty I'm not Much of a Catapult guy. My Favorite Mechs are the Orion the Dire Wolf Centurion Warhawk. and yea So used to MW3 and MW4 where missles could just obliterate mechs. As it stands With a great lance with you Catapults are fine right now. Just felt if they did maybe 10-15% more dmg they would be perfect. That being said all in all its just an opinion

[Lightfoot]

My reading of Role Warfare is that all the 'mechs are support 'mechs. They support each other, therefore when an LRM Catapult is at 600 meters it is as effective as any other mech in it's role. That's the way it has to be, more or less. Otherwise any 'mech with an AC20 would feel no fear of crossing that open expanse and finishing off the Catapult, and again no one would take LRMs.

[Urulf]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 June 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

So that's 12 points of damage per LRM 20, which is substantial normally but with doubled armor and internal structure that's not as damaging, especially when it's spread over the whole chassis as missiles do.

This is my main concern. If u double the armor and internals to give more survivability at the game, a weapon that relies so heavily on RNG to hit (just to start) and the spread their dmg is getting (for what the devs have been saying so far about it), even if they double the amount of ammo you can carry with each ton, it still will feel as a "weak" weapon system, more if the RNG affects negatively.

LRMs should allways feel like a treat, not like something u can just brezze pass it and ignore while brawling others targets.

Example:
on TT, u hit with 12 missiles, its a ok shot.
here, to do the same, u have to hit with 24 missiles on 2 different salvos, giving the target time enough to hide behind a rock after the first salvo hit (warning him about the LRM proximity) wasting the 2º salvo entirely and loosing those 12 (aprox) dmg hits, doing efectively half the "ideal" dmg that was supposed at the start with a surprise salvo of LRM, dumbing down the usefullness of the support mech.

P.D: There is allways ppl that will just stay at the spot while the LRM rain over them, but guess it won't happen a lot, and ppl will run for cover as soon as **** start pummeling from above.

Edited by Urulf, 06 June 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 June 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

The other thing you have to remember is that LRM's do 1 damage per missile default, and they don't all hit most of the time. They have their own guidance issues which can cause many to miss. I think the average is 12 missiles hit out of 20.

So that's 12 points of damage per LRM 20, which is substantial normally but with doubled armor and internal structure that's not as damaging, especially when it's spread over the whole chassis as missiles do.

There might be tricks to making them work better, I dunno, but the LRM 20 should never be counted as 20 damage every hit.

That is 12 average damage that is spread around the mech too. LRMs aren't supposed to be mech killers. They soften mechs up so other mechs can kill them or they are crit seekers later in the battle. If a cat is outright killing mechs with LRMs they are probably too powerful. Its a support weapon on a support mech.

[DaZur]

AceTimberwolf, on 06 June 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

You are totally right. I only played for a couple of hours and by no means am I a expert on MWO. And I'm not Amazing at MW, just an average Player who has played all the other MW games. and yea I'm glad the LRMs aren't insta kill.

No worries... I'm completely jazzed with your efforts to forward intel... Glad you understood my pov!

[Radman]

TheRulesLawyer, on 06 June 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

That is 12 average damage that is spread around the mech too. LRMs aren't supposed to be mech killers. They soften mechs up so other mechs can kill them or they are crit seekers later in the battle. If a cat is outright killing mechs with LRMs they are probably too powerful. Its a support weapon on a support mech.

This. They should do some damage but medium mechs with decent armor should be able to survive multiple salvos from LRM-15's and 20's.

[Sassori]

TheRulesLawyer, on 06 June 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

That is 12 average damage that is spread around the mech too. LRMs aren't supposed to be mech killers. They soften mechs up so other mechs can kill them or they are crit seekers later in the battle. If a cat is outright killing mechs with LRMs they are probably too powerful. Its a support weapon on a support mech.

Uh I mentioned that the damage is spread around the mech.

However I disagree with the rest of your statement. LRM-20's /used/ to be very good at killing mech's. At least in the table top rules. If I fire two LRM-20's then that's on average 24 damage in 6 groups of damage, which makes it an excellent crit seeker as well as an armor destroyer. That double volley of LRM-20's would strip off somewhere in the neighborhood of two tons of armor. A salvo of LRM-20's is supposed to be damaging and only the heaviest armor is supposed to weather the storm safely and nobody should just let volley after volley rain on them without care.

I do admit that they shouldn't be the best weapon out there, but it's clearly a case where there threat was /substantially/ reduced compared to the TT.

[Kobold]

Response regarding Dragons: I would be sad if the stock DRG-1N Dragon didn't underperform. It is woefully undergunned. In tabletop it is basically only useful for kicking things because it is heavy for a low BV. This is why they came up with the DRG-1G Grand Dragon.

[Radman]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 June 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Uh I mentioned that the damage is spread around the mech.

However I disagree with the rest of your statement. LRM-20's /used/ to be very good at killing mech's. At least in the table top rules. If I fire two LRM-20's then that's on average 24 damage in 6 groups of damage, which makes it an excellent crit seeker as well as an armor destroyer. That double volley of LRM-20's would strip off somewhere in the neighborhood of two tons of armor. A salvo of LRM-20's is supposed to be damaging and only the heaviest armor is supposed to weather the storm safely and nobody should just let volley after volley rain on them without care.

I do admit that they shouldn't be the best weapon out there, but it's clearly a case where there threat was /substantially/ reduced compared to the TT.

They didn't kill mechs in the first few turns though. They softened mechs up in the beginning rounds and finished them off in later rounds after brawlers had engaged.

In the end I think we all want mostly the same thing, which is balance and relevance for all weapons in the game. If you hit a 25 ton mech standing still with 2-4 salvos of LRM 20's yes you should kill it or seriously damage it. A 50 ton mech running at full speed is an entirely different story.

[FactorlanP]

Didn't I read that while Armor was doubled, wasn't ammo doubled too? Or did I imagine that?

Seems to me that the goal of the developers is to extend the time of the fights. With double armor and double ammo, real inflicted damage potential is the same. It's just slowed down.

This strikes me as good design. Nobody enjoys getting one shotted, or alpha killed etc as soon as a match starts. It seems to me that more fun will be had by all if the fights all last longer.

[AceTimberwolf]

Radman, on 06 June 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

They didn't kill mechs in the first few turns though. They softened mechs up in the beginning rounds and finished them off in later rounds after brawlers had engaged.

In the end I think we all want mostly the same thing, which is balance and relevance for all weapons in the game. If you hit a 25 ton mech standing still with 2-4 salvos of LRM 20's yes you should kill it or seriously damage it. A 50 ton mech running at full speed is an entirely different story.

Yea, and I wasn't going to hit the Jenners anyways. Probably some crappy Pilot who stood still but the ones I was playing with were too fast and jumping in and out of cover it would have been a waste to target them. Did Mention Jenners and I don't get along? = P

Edited by AceTimberwolf, 06 June 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[RainbowToh]

What make you guys think that the damage per missile is still 1 as per TT? Might it not be two, or 1.5? (Unless I missed out on some announcement or something)

I think 1.5x of TT dmg would factor in nicely with double armor. You would last longer than an average mech would be in TT, but will still keep you on your toes

[Radman]

AceTimberwolf, on 06 June 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Yea, and I wasn't going to hit the Jenners anyways. Probably some crappy Pilot who stood still but the ones I was playing with were too fast and jumping in and out of cover it would have been a waste to target them. Did Mention Jenners and I don't get along? = P

Hehe! I'll probably be in Jenner so my apologies in advance. What you just wrote though is so similar to how BT novels and source books used to read.

And as others have said I think they do want to extend the match times some to give more fun to all. I'm actually very excited about what you've written so far as it meshes very closely with how I hoped the game would play out.

[Urulf]

tbh, i would rather have a normal amount of ammo, and do double dmg from missiles (equalling the double armor issue), rather than have double amount of ammo and do fewer dmg.

Getting a first shot that hurts (not insta kill, nor close to it) its more relevant than scrapping coat after coat of paint for 2-3 minutes of fight while running out of ammo.

This is a great issue for ballistic and missile sistems, since, the longer the fight, with double armor, the laser boats will get the supremacy at the game. Why we will use weapons that does "few" dmg (yeah i know AC20 is "working as intended creating new vents on mechs" and all) and run out of ammo, while i can get a few "laser" weapons and be as effective from minute 1 to minute 15 of the match. (im taking in account the heat of lasers, their higher cost and everything)

I understand the pov of the devs, trying to make the games last longer so everyone have a chance to enjoy and play, but making entire weapon systems nearly "useless" (or weapons ppl don't have to worry about while getting shoot with them at) for that reason is a bit overkill, dont you think ?

Edited by Urulf, 06 June 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[HellJumper]

nice to hear some E3 coverage..

By any chance are we going to see some gameplay footage??

would be nice if you guys live stream/ record a match and upload it for us to have a look at it

[CompleteTanker]

An excellent post in so many ways ;-)

Understanding the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is always an epic win

[FinnMcKool]

thanks ACE , folks need to remember its still in Beta , that means a lot can and will still change.
Its observations that Ace has made that will make it a better game.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

So weapons don't hit where you are aiming? Gameplay videos/screenshots seemed to show a fairly precise crosshair... seems like a disconnect... like a giant circle would be more apropriate. Does using chain-fire make a difference? Or will players have to dial in their own weapon convergence range?

Again, its beta. Watched the gameplay videos again, and those weapons are hitting where the crosshairs (both of them) are aiming. So perhaps something has changed... or we just need to play it to get the feel for it.

Edited by eldragon, 06 June 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[vettie]

Thanx Ace for the report. Nice to hear something from a real guy like most of us, lol (no offense to the Devs).

I know people are loading up on questions to you, oh, wth, me too, lol

Did you notice much about the electronics in mech, such as the radar systems and ecm and or bap or whatever else they might have introduced to the video version? Any info would be interesting and I realize its still early beta.

Thanx again!