75 replies to this topic

[AntharPrime]

Let me start this off by stating that I am no expert on Battletech lore, I never read any of the fiction, I owned only a handful of techspec books back in the day and played some of the games over the years, my favorites being the original Mechwarrior and Mechwarrior 3 on PC.

When reading up on Omnimechs, I realized that there really isn't anything that is needed to be done to balance these mechs out compared to IS Mechs. The Omnimech chasis is adaptable to any hardpoints, you can change your loadout to any configuration that your hearts desire. This, according to Sarna.net, allows a greater adaptablity in the field without having to field more mechs. One day you can have the mech configured to an uber-missile boat and the next you cand load on 20 short range pulse lasers of doom, there are no hardpoint restrictions.

The drawback of Omnimechs, at least as I read it on Sarna.net, is that the engine, internal structure and armor is hardwired into the Omnimech. You can remove the engine and put in a new one, but this removes the Omnimech feature and makes it into a standard battle field mech. Plus weapons for Omnimechs are not interchangeable with regular mech weapons, although clans do have advanced weapons in standard battlemechs.

There will be a brief period when Clan tech weapons and upgrades will give the clans an advantage over IS mechs but as soon as everyone gets access to clan double heatsinks and their lighter weapons, an IS mech is just as competetive as any Clan mech.

With their disadvantages which include high price and the player having to buy a whole new set of weapons (only ammo is interchangeable) Omnimechs are not as OP as they would seem at first glance.

[Kay Oss]

Just one thing that I have to disagree with though is the fact that price can be considered as any type balancing mechanism. I have 23 IS mechs so far. If the only thing keeping me from a better mech is money, I will earn said money in no time and I am sure that is the case with plenty of players.

I hope that when the Clan mechs are introduced, the devs have already done a lot of internal testing and balancing. I don't want to go through another year of balancing and knee-jerk overcompensating. I know this is taboo to some players, but IMO, regardless of the lore, I think the only way this can work well is if they are very closely matched to current mechs. There is no point sticking to the lore if the balance of the game would be compromised as a result.

[Parliment]

As lore and TT goes clan mechs are better in tech. What balanced them was tactics. I dont know how you can inforce behavior on clan fluffy kitten pilots. So the fix has to be in exspense or drop size limits.
That is the way to balance fairly considering the tech gap.

[Pariah Devalis]

Honestly, the drop size limit is how I want it to be balanced. 10v12 is almost crippling in a Conquest setting or, really, any game mode where a straight up annihilation is not the only way to win. On a per Clan mech to IS mech basis, one clan mech of a given tonnage will likely have 1.3x-1.5x the firepower of their same tonnage IS counterparts, but the maximum armor values are dead even between both sides, and the Clan XL is slightly less survivable than IS Standard Engines, so by a weight of focused fire the IS mechs have a better chance to down a Clan machine.

Of course, when (not if, because we all know it will happen) Clan mechs start focusing fire, it is going to be absolutely painful to watch what they do to their target, but the loss of any one IS mech is felt far less than the loss of any single Clan mech by a weight of numbers, relative firepower, and a tactical options standpoint.

[Outlaw]

Honestly I see them taking the different configurations that were present in the TROs and then breaking them down into Hard Points. Yeah you lose the ability to create whatever layout you want, but it would be easier for them to do especially given the mech "advancement" system that is currently in place. Not only is it easier to do since the system is already in place, it also promotes players using MC to buy more "Configurations" thus increasing PGIs income.

One thing that has me worried about them going full "OmniMech" is the fact that in Canon you CANNOT change the Armor type and values, Engine, or structure of a mech. Meaning that some of the mechs will be absolutely atrocious like the Hellbringer due to their extremely low armor weight and the use of standard structure and armor.

Edited by Outlaw, 12 May 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Outlaw, on 12 May 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Honestly I see them taking the different configurations that were present in the TROs and then breaking them down into Hard Points. Yeah you lose the ability to create whatever layout you want, but it would be easier for them to do especially given the mech "advancement" system that is currently in place. Not only is it easier to do since the system is already in place, it also promotes players using MC to buy more "Configurations".

I have a feeling you are dead on with that. It folds into the mech XP system they already have designed. They may throw in a single omni-slot here and there, just for shiggles, but otherwise..... Also, love the sig, Outlaw. Hellbringer > Timberwolf.

[Gyrok]

I somewhat like the idea of drop size being limited...because that would realistically be truer to the original lore.

[Outlaw]

Thanks my RL friend made the sig for me While im thinking about it another issue that will make this tricky for them is the fact that once the Chassis is Locked, any Heat Sinks added must take up Critical space as they cannot be fitted into the engine. Meaning they have to create a whole new Heat Sink system for just the Clans to use.

Edited by Outlaw, 12 May 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I am not so sure of that. Heatsinks, depending on the mech, are either fixed or not fixed. Or some are fixed and some are not. Like, the heatsinks on a Hellbringer are not fixed, IIRC, but the heatsinks on a Warhawk are. Fixed equipment, if they incorporate that at all, will be weird. Like, say, the fixed Flamer on the Adder. In what conceivable situation would a light, long range weapons platform use a Flamer?

What I am also absolutely curious about is how they will handle targeting computers. While I am hoping for a lead pipper to line our reticule on for center mass shots with ballistic weaponry, there are a couple ways they can handle the targeting systems it provides.

[Strum Wealh]

I would imagine/hope that the Targeting Computer functionality (we Spheroids get our own version before too long... in 3062 ) would be composed of:
1.) a leading designator, much like the one seen in MechWarrior 3, and
2.) a small (5-10%) bonus to convergence time for direct-fire weapons

Also of interest is how the variable weight/space requirements for Targeting Computers would be done, since they vary as a function of the overall tonnage of direct-fire weaponry - specifically, "Clan Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up)."
As such, the Targeting Computer on, say, a Masakari Prime would weigh 5 tons and consume 5 criticals (6 tons per ER-PPC * 4 ER-PPCs = 24 tons; 24/5 = 4.8, rounds up to 5 tons/criticals) while the Targeting Computer on, say, a Guillotine IIC 2 (not available until 3070) would weigh only 2 tons and consume only 2 criticals (6 tons for the ER-PPC + 4 tons for the quartet of ER Medium Lasers = 10 tons; 10/2 = 2 tons/criticals).

[Keisuke Nagisa]

I like the idea of keeping the restrictions that are inherent to clan mechs, so no engine changes and no structure or armor type changes. Also instead of having open hardpoints I like the idea of having to buy whole pods. So you cant just throw any weapons you want on a mech. You would buy pods that have a preset weapon config and you can mix and match those pods as you see fit. This would give IS mechs more versatility and clan mechs would be more specialized.

At that point damage and heat would just need to be tweaked for balance.

[Vanguard319]

I would reason that an omnimech would have universal hardpoints. (an omnipoint would support energy, ballistic, missile, and AMS.) In the context of classic BT, omni tech basically made it possible to quickly repair/refit/rearm mechs in the field, something which I don't think any mechwarrior game has ever really taken advantage of, (In Mechwarrior 3 and 4, you could repair and reload ammo in the field, but you could not replace destroyed weapons, even when piloting an omnimech.) and Mechwarrior online has no field repair bays that I am aware of, so trying to balance for engine/ chassis mods seems kind of irrelevant. As far as how an omnimech might appear in the mechbay, I'm going to suggest the following:

Summoner (Thor)
70 tons
Clan 350 XL engine
Clan FF armor (9.5 tons)
14 Clan DHS
Standard Chassis
8 omnipoints (2LA, 2LT, 2RT, 2RA)
Cost: 21,320,834 C-Bills

NOTE: I based the # and placement of slots for weapons on the five classic configs primary through D. Since I described omni points as covering AMS, I also took into account that the D version being described as having 2 AMS. This hardpoint setup gives enough points to cover all known configurations except the Q variant. (though you could swap the 6 SRM 4s for 2 SRM 6s, to approximate it)

[Strum Wealh]

Vanguard319, on 12 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

I would reason that an omnimech would have universal hardpoints. (an omnipoint would support energy, ballistic, missile, and AMS.) In the context of classic BT, omni tech basically made it possible to quickly repair/refit/rearm mechs in the field, something which I don't think any mechwarrior game has ever really taken advantage of, (In Mechwarrior 3 and 4, you could repair and reload ammo in the field, but you could not replace destroyed weapons, even when piloting an omnimech.) and Mechwarrior online has no field repair bays that I am aware of, so trying to balance for engine/ chassis mods seems kind of irrelevant. As far as how an omnimech might appear in the mechbay, I'm going to suggest the following:

Summoner (Thor)
70 tons
Clan 350 XL engine
Clan FF armor (9.5 tons)
14 Clan DHS
Standard Chassis
8 omnipoints (2LA, 2LT, 2RT, 2RA)
Cost: 21,320,834 C-Bills

NOTE: I based the # and placement of slots for weapons on the five classic configs primary through D. Since I described omni points as covering AMS, I also took into account that the D version being described as having 2 AMS. This hardpoint setup gives enough points to cover all known configurations except the Q variant. (though you could swap the 6 SRM 4s for 2 SRM 6s, to approximate it)

Agreed!

If interested, I posted a rather in-depth description/explanation of my thoughts and the TT/canon balancing system in the other thread.

[Outlaw]

Problem with that method is that Boating becomes even more commonplace. Separating each variant of an OmniMech into the established Hardpoint system would limit boating and allow players to customize the chassis itself. Otherwise there will be absolutely no reason nor incentive to play certain mechs as they are not only stuck at stock levels of armor but stuck at stock placement values. Meaning that there will be a superflous amount of armor in the rear while the frontal armor is laughably thin when compared to a comperable weight modified IS mech.

Edited by Outlaw, 12 May 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Joker Two]

Outlaw, on 12 May 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

One thing that has me worried about them going full "OmniMech" is the fact that in Canon you CANNOT change the Armor type and values, Engine, or structure of a mech. Meaning that some of the mechs will be absolutely atrocious like the Hellbringer due to their extremely low armor weight and the use of standard structure and armor.

You can change these values through the same customization process that is used for Inner Sphere 'Mechs, but doing so removes the "Omni" quality, as the 'Mech is no longer standardized.

What many people forget when discussing 'Mech customization is that even Succession Wars-era IS 'Mechs could be customized in almost any way, tonnage, critical space, time, and money permitting. The "Omni" quality simply reduces the difficulty of these customizations drastically.

In MWO, the cost in time and difficulty of customizations has disappeared, only replaced by a "Hardpoint" system that abstracts this difficulty to "possible/not possible". If the MWO customization system remains the same (and I doubt it will change any time soon) the only benefit to OmniMechs would be a wider array of Hardpoints than a Standard 'Mech, as the time and difficulty benefits would be meaningless. A single variant of a 'Mech with extreme customization would conflict with the current 'Mech Efficiency Trees, however, and so Clan Omnis will still likely have multiple variants labeled "Prime, -A, -B" etc. with different Hardpoint layouts.

In this respect, the importance of the "Omni" quality is minor at best. Most of the benefits it provides (ease of repair, re-arm, and customization) are meaningless, as customization is free and instantaneous, and limited only by Hardpoints. Variants of OmniMechs themselves would likely have limited hardpoints as well to fit into the current 'Mech Efficiency scheme. Since the "Omni" quality would mean almost nothing, there is little reason to restrict OmniMechs from changing structure, engine, heat sink, or armor type, as doing so would reduce them to standard Battlemechs, which can already be customized (hardpoints permitting) just as easily.

I doubt PGI will even differentiate Omni and non-Omni 'Mechs at all, as doing so will create more problems than it would solve.

[FupDup]

Joker Two, on 12 May 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

You can change these values through the same customization process that is used for Inner Sphere 'Mechs, but doing so removes the "Omni" quality, as the 'Mech is no longer standardized.

What many people forget when discussing 'Mech customization is that even Succession Wars-era IS 'Mechs could be customized in almost any way, tonnage, critical space, time, and money permitting. The "Omni" quality simply reduces the difficulty of these customizations drastically.

In MWO, the cost in time and difficulty of customizations has disappeared, only replaced by a "Hardpoint" system that abstracts this difficulty to "possible/not possible". If the MWO customization system remains the same (and I doubt it will change any time soon) the only benefit to OmniMechs would be a wider array of Hardpoints than a Standard 'Mech, as the time and difficulty benefits would be meaningless. A single variant of a 'Mech with extreme customization would conflict with the current 'Mech Efficiency Trees, however, and so Clan Omnis will still likely have multiple variants labeled "Prime, -A, -B" etc. with different Hardpoint layouts.

In this respect, the importance of the "Omni" quality is minor at best. Most of the benefits it provides (ease of repair, re-arm, and customization) are meaningless, as customization is free and instantaneous, and limited only by Hardpoints. Variants of OmniMechs themselves would likely have limited hardpoints as well to fit into the current 'Mech Efficiency scheme. Since the "Omni" quality would mean almost nothing, there is little reason to restrict OmniMechs from changing structure, engine, heat sink, or armor type, as doing so would reduce them to standard Battlemechs, which can already be customized (hardpoints permitting) just as easily.

I doubt PGI will even differentiate Omni and non-Omni 'Mechs at all, as doing so will create more problems than it would solve.

One more lurking consequence of restricting Omnis is that Inner Sphere Omnis in the eventual future would be shafted incredibly hard. Clan Omnis can stay afloat due to superior equipment, but IS Omnis would have to deal with sh*tty IS tech as well as massive restrictions unless they can salvage some Clan Omnipods (even then, IS mechs still get sh*tty FF, Endo, XL, and DHS).

Just imagine Avatars and Sunders being stuck with XL engines...the horror!

Edited by FupDup, 13 May 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[Capt Cole 117]

Let the clans have their scary super tech, but if I can beat them in battle the New Avalon Institute of Science should pay a fortune for the salvage. And for the record mix tech would be a terrible idea rendering all InnerSphere items obsolete.

[Hotthedd]

Capt Cole 117, on 13 May 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Let the clans have their scary super tech, but if I can beat them in battle the New Avalon Institute of Science should pay a fortune for the salvage. And for the record mix tech would be a terrible idea rendering all InnerSphere items obsolete.

MixTech is the perfect thing to balance Clan Mechs and I.S. Mechs. It should be incredibly rare for a couple of years, however.

[snake8eyes]

The 10v12 thing might be the best way to balance the matches. That is how it went down in Twlight of the Clans. One company of IS mechs (12) vs a binary of clan mechs (10). Remember who won that match up.

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 13 May 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

MixTech is the perfect thing to balance Clan Mechs and I.S. Mechs. It should be incredibly rare for a couple of years, however.

That would certainly balance the mechs, but the equipment, on the other hand...not so much.

I personally would like to see a "tradeoffs" kind of system with Clan tech to balance out their advantages. Sure, you get less weight, less crits, and for energy weapons you get some more range and damage--but things like longer beam duration, tighter missile trajectories, slower reloads, etc. would allow Clan stuff to keep their canon advantages while using MWO's non-canon mechanics to counteract them.

Edited by FupDup, 14 May 2013 - 04:35 AM.