396 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

If I see that, I personally would be more than content leaving one light mech to keep an eye on enemy movement, and have everyone else on my team minimize, check e-mails, peruse the forums, etc.. just stay on TS until the other team decides to get off their duff.

Wow, dude.

So your suggestion is to just go do other stuff, and not play the game.

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the game mechanics involving capping are terribad, if the best solution you can come up with is to alt-tab to another program and wait for the enemy to engage you (since you can't engage THEM without exposing yourself to being capped).

[Shadowsword8]

I am a die-hard Stalker pilot, and I approve of the OP.

I want a game where you actually scout for the enemy.

I want a game where light and medium mechs are not extinct.

I want a game more complex than two unthinking herds of sheeps headed for each other.

So, a big Yes to capping, and contempt for those who'll complain about capping, yet will never bother to try to prevent it.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 13 May 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Livewyr]

I disagree, but I appreciate an honest opinion given without edge.

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

sorry but I truly despise capping in this game. Purely due to the big distances and amount of time to get to places without things happening. And I just don't understand the mentality of light pilots who don't fire a single shot whole game, thinking they are some sort of badasses by being able to outmaneuver or outrun much slower opponents (especially on the larger maps).

This is the mentality of the light pilot who starts capping a base without firing a shot(at least in my case):
In stepping on their base and threatening to exploit their weakness and cap, I force at least some of them to change their current course. That maneuver alone has far more impact on the course of the match than any assault mech carrying my mech's weight in weaponry. In the event that they ignore it and don't react to it at all (and are mutilating my team), then I must enforce the requirement to react in the future.. and capture the base.

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

I log this game to ride robots and shoot lasers. If i don't see things go boom boom in a match I generally had a bad/boring game...

I log this game to have a drastic impact on the match, whether that involves pewpew zapzap boomboom or silently forcing their hand.

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Lights are great in fights.... meds needs some buffs, dunno what exactly but they are generally much easier to kill in anything. So you should stick with your lance and assist them in whatever role you have when they go looking for a fight. Remember, we don't launch to go have a smoke and a walkabout.

I don't think lights are great in fights, too easy to leg them and kill them now. Buffing mediums either makes them heavies or lights..

Not all of us launch to charge the enemy and fight to the death in a straightforward brawl.. that's the realm of assaults and heavies. We have mediums and lights for a reason, I don't think that reason is to face off with someone who has you outweighed in weaponry alone.

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

To me capping is the same as trolling and you surely can't be having fun, running on your own to cap Also it takes very very very little skill to outrun/outmaneuver a much slower guy in a massive map.

I would say actually sneaking to the enemy base, avoiding detection, and dealing with whatever they send back takes just as much skill (or more) than lumbering in a heavy/assault and fighting straight up. And it certainly has more impact on a match.

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, i am not talking about tapping the base here, or running to distract, or bait. I have no problem with that and usually encourage it. However, even tapping in larger maps will most often lead to capping cuz it takes forever to get back and is no fun at all.... whoever taps/caps he would have not fired a shot the whole game and for the others... it would have been an unfair/imbalanced fight.

One does what they have to do, I personally don't agree with the 2 minute fast cap, but I would rather a light mech go and at least start capturing- than trying to fight a heavy or assault which is a matter of time before being legged and finished.

If the enemy doesn't react, (this is where he must be in contact with his time) then win it by cap if needed.

[Braggart]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Mediums are good for taking out lights.

Example: When in Alpine with my Centurion, I keep terrain between myself and the enemy while moving generally around them in a similar direction as my scout- when my scout finds them and gets engaged by their scout(s) he brings them back to me because I'm closer than our heavy forces, and have more firepower/armor than the lights. I can be escaped, but not as easily, not before inflicting some heavy damage on his retreat.

This is not an anecdotal incident, this is a concept.

Another one- once heavy forces engage, I take my faster mech with some firepower and I engage the enemy from behind, if only for a brief time before leaving.. simply to create cross-fire and multi directional concern. (Confusion for simple terms.)

Also not an anecdotal incident, but a concept.

These are things that mediums should be doing, but aren't. They buy into the straightforward engagement protocol instead of using their speed to shoot and be gone before the enemy can even identify their location.

lol. Speed???????????????Speed? For a medium to even go fast, they have to carry a heavy enough engine, that they carry the firepower of a light. but they are huge, and slower, and much easier to kill. There is nothing a Medium can do better than a Light in the same role.

Also, talking about how awesome you are in a cent is funny, everyone knows the cent benefits from the damage transfer bug which gives Cents an unrealistic view of how much armor they have.

[stjobe]

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

I log this game to ride robots and shoot lasers. If i don't see things go boom boom in a match I generally had a bad/boring game...

There is a great way to make this happen, which will also stop the capping: Don't drop in a slow assault or heavy every time, drop in a fast heavy, a fast medium, or in a light some times - and go fight where the fight is to be had, be that in the middle with the fatties or at the cap with the lights.

If more people actually had the means (and inclination) to respond to the both visual and aural message "The other team is stealing your shiny!", there would be much less unopposed caps, and there would be more fighting.

But sometimes it seems that "fighting" is only meant to be "plod to the middle and ridgehump/poptart". That's a pretty narrow definition of a fight, don't you agree?

As I said earlier in the thread, some of the best fights I've had has been around the cap. But for that to happen, people need to stop always bringing their slow fatties to the fight and start mixing it up with dropping with something that's able to respond to a "base is being captured" message.

[Livewyr]

Roland, on 13 May 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Wow, dude.

So your suggestion is to just go do other stuff, and not play the game.

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the game mechanics involving capping are terribad, if the best solution you can come up with is to alt-tab to another program and wait for the enemy to engage you (since you can't engage THEM without exposing yourself to being capped).

Excusing your first ham-handed attempt at a quip:

The solution is not in fear of being capped, the solution is not indulging their demand that I fight them on their defensive terms,against their blob.

[RG Notch]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

It probably won't be as satisfying as a response, as you were hoping for.. but it's more than your post deserves.

And with that, you're dismissed.

So you can't address the points so you dismiss me. I guess that's what happens when you've got nothing going but to grief people. Look at how you can't even address any opinion contrary. I guess since the majority of players and the dev team just dismiss you it's a natural response. 80% of matches ended without caps shows who's getting dismissed and it's not people who want to fight. Also it wasn't players that reduced the rewards for standing in the Red Square.
I get that there are lots of People of the Red Square on the forums, but they certainly aren't well represented in the player base at large. Now I know you want to dismiss all those who don't agree that cap racing is the epitome of tactical genius, but the fact that most players don't agree and the fact that the devs don't want people to cap race seems to show who's being dismissed in game.
So feel free to "win" the forums but only a fraction of games end with caps and that's the way the majority of the players and the dev team likes it. You and the other People of the Red Square can post all your defenses to the social unacceptabilty of it and all it does is show why it's not popular.
So someone is dismissed where it counts, in game and some one can try to dismiss this on the forums but oh well 4/5 games end without capping so I leave it to you to sort out which dismissal matters.
If you want less fighting and more standing ind the Red Square you can play Conquest, where you will see more lights and mediums having impact. Or you can try to change the 80% of matches in assault where people fight because, well fighting is fun.
Does something need to be done about mediums and the current metagame, sure, but resorting to griefing in order to make your point is sad and counter productive. So is dismissing anyone who doesn't agree with you, but it's easier than trying to debate if you've got nothing to back your point up with.

[Livewyr]

Braggart, on 13 May 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

lol. Speed???????????????Speed? For a medium to even go fast, they have to carry a heavy enough engine, that they carry the firepower of a light. but they are huge, and slower, and much easier to kill. There is nothing a Medium can do better than a Light in the same role.

Also, talking about how awesome you are in a cent is funny, everyone knows the cent benefits from the damage transfer bug which gives Cents an unrealistic view of how much armor they have.

Funny.. if I put a maxed out XL engine and full armor in a Centurion (300 in the case of YLW, 275 in others) I still have around 20 tons left for weaponry/HS, etc...

Putting a maxed out engine in a Jenner leaves me about 8-10 tons..

8-10 tons vs 20.. I'd say the Cent has for more firepower capacity.


Hunchie is more dangerous with an XL engine because they can't turn sideways to reduce profile, they're a block.. so the hunchie, with its 7-9 Hardpoints would be slower.

Treblolchet.. they can keep up the lights pretty well as it is.

[Braggart]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Funny.. if I put a maxed out XL engine and full armor in a Centurion (300 in the case of YLW, 275 in others) I still have around 20 tons left for weaponry/HS, etc...

Putting a maxed out engine in a Jenner leaves me about 8-10 tons..

8-10 tons vs 20.. I'd say the Cent has for more firepower capacity.


Hunchie is more dangerous with an XL engine because they can't turn sideways to reduce profile, they're a block.. so the hunchie, with its 7-9 Hardpoints would be slower.

Treblolchet.. they can keep up the lights pretty well as it is.

are you kidding me...................................................... With max armor, and endo and Ferro with a max engine. A cent has 14 tons. A jenner with a max engine, keep in my XL is perfectly fine on a Jenner, but not a Cent, you have 11 tons. Tell me how being bigger, slower, and have 3 more tons of weapons beats going 50kph faster, and being half the size. It doesnt.

Seriously though, if you are putting an XL in your Cent, Well you basically fail. First because you dont realize that lights are better, and 2nd that you put an XL in a mech that can be 1 shot, and cannot dodge for crap. A heavier mech is gonna each your Cent alive, and a lighter mech is gonna harass you from behind, and chew out your XL engine. Putting an XL in a medium that isnt a Cicada instantly makes you the easiest mech in the game to kill

Keep in mind that your opponent is just as good at this game as you are. If you are good enough to torso twist to avoid damage, your opponent is good enough to hold his fire until you twist back to fire your guns. Which I love to bait people, they twist away and think hurdurr I'm protecting myself, so I'll fire a single weapon and make them think they took my volley, only to turn back and take the rest of it. Pretend for once your enemy is as good as you.

Edited by Braggart, 13 May 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Zerberus]

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

To me capping is the same as trolling and you surely can't be having fun, running on your own to cap Also it takes very very very little skill to outrun/outmaneuver a much slower guy in a massive map.

ROFL.

This is probably the root of all the Asasault rage, this simple yet ridiculous assumption.

Where it breaks down is in matches where 1 team has 2 heavies, 2 "mediums", and 4 lights and the other has 3 assaults, 3 heavies, and 2 mediums. If you see 1 lance of lights, 2 cicadas, a fang and a flame in your team at the start, you`re flat out stupid if you`re not already assuming to be outweighed by at least 100 tons, especially if oyu think you can take them head on.

If the team with the 4 lights has half a brain between them, they`re going for a cap rush, because it`s their only statistically viable way of winning the match. Let the 4 heavies distract while the lights get the win. Everything else is suicide.

That is superior tactics, nothing more, nothing less.

But the only thing you hear from the highladers, cataphracts and stalkers is still "Stupid cheating lights"..... coincidence?

[stjobe]

Braggart, on 13 May 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

With max armor, and endo and Ferro with a max engine. A cent has 14 tons.

A Centurion with max armour (338), endo, FF, and 275 engine has 16.57 tons free (or 24.07 with an XL), going 98 kph.
A Jenner with max armour (238), endo, FF, and XL300 engine has 10.86 tons free, going 147.7 kph.

Not taking sides, just giving the correct numbers.

Edited by stjobe, 13 May 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Roland]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Excusing your first ham-handed attempt at a quip:

The solution is not in fear of being capped, the solution is not indulging their demand that I fight them on their defensive terms,against their blob.

And your only solution, given the current cap mechanics, is to just alt-tab out of the game.

Sounds like there is a fundamental problem with the game then.

If there wasn't a cap mechanic, and the enemy chose to just sit somewhere and camp as a blob, you could maneuver your main force around them and pummel them from various angles.

Of course, given that doing such a thing would expose you to being capped by a single enemy light, you can't really do this. You need to stay back and do exactly what the enemy is doing.

Again, you're basically saying, "Hey, you guys should just defend your base!" but then when you are presented with the obvious implications of that, you say, "Well if they all choose to defend, then I'll just not bother playing."

Your assessment of the situation is shortsighted to say the least.

[Braggart]

stjobe, on 13 May 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

A Centurion with max armour (338), endo, FF, and 275 engine has 16.57 tons free (or 24.07 with an XL), going 98 kph.
A Jenner with max armour (238), endo, FF, and XL300 engine has 10.86 tons free, going 147.7 kph.

Not taking sides, just giving the correct numbers.

my mistake, but still not enough to actually make a medium worth while.

[Agent of Change]

RG Notch, on 13 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

So you can't address the points so you dismiss me. I guess that's what happens when you've got nothing going but to grief people. Look at how you can't even address any opinion contrary. I guess since the majority of players and the dev team just dismiss you it's a natural response. 80% of matches ended without caps shows who's getting dismissed and it's not people who want to fight. Also it wasn't players that reduced the rewards for standing in the Red Square.
I get that there are lots of People of the Red Square on the forums, but they certainly aren't well represented in the player base at large. Now I know you want to dismiss all those who don't agree that cap racing is the epitome of tactical genius, but the fact that most players don't agree and the fact that the devs don't want people to cap race seems to show who's being dismissed in game.
So feel free to "win" the forums but only a fraction of games end with caps and that's the way the majority of the players and the dev team likes it. You and the other People of the Red Square can post all your defenses to the social unacceptabilty of it and all it does is show why it's not popular.
So someone is dismissed where it counts, in game and some one can try to dismiss this on the forums but oh well 4/5 games end without capping so I leave it to you to sort out which dismissal matters.
If you want less fighting and more standing ind the Red Square you can play Conquest, where you will see more lights and mediums having impact. Or you can try to change the 80% of matches in assault where people fight because, well fighting is fun.
Does something need to be done about mediums and the current metagame, sure, but resorting to griefing in order to make your point is sad and counter productive. So is dismissing anyone who doesn't agree with you, but it's easier than trying to debate if you've got nothing to back your point up with.

ROFL

capping = griefing.

That's exactly right, you are 100% correct, you have hit the nail onf the head, I have seen teh light, hell you may have even just created world peace.

Next on the list solve world hunger by making sure everyone is eating the way I want them to eat and convince everyone that's eating different things that they are wrong. /sarcasm

So your contention is that fighting is fun and capping is not. I get that, can we also agree that opinions are, in fact, opinions and that your contention, is in fact, an opinion?

With that now taken as a given can we also agree that fighting is fun, that winning is fun, and that walking directly into a firing line of assaults kitted for power alphas who then end you in a matter of seconds is not fun.

With that established, we can then say capping to pull aforementioned alpha assaults out of position is a smart move, and that teams that don't have anything that can or will at the very least watch their glaring weakness deserves to lose if they can't defend their base?

I mean I understand that walking forward to alpha strike the enemy walking forward to alpha strike you AND thinking about whether you might be being flanked (or capped) is quite mentally taxing but lets stretch out what we think might be possible here for arguments sake. A lance with a spread of classes and roles that allow you to use and react to multiple kinds of tactics might be quite useful in a team game with role based play, crazy i know.

But you know what they say When all someone thinks they have is a hammer mount PPC's on a heavy or assault mech and cry like babies when people refuse to wander into their cross hairs. (or something like that.)

[Livewyr]

Roland, on 13 May 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

If there wasn't a cap mechanic, and the enemy chose to just sit somewhere and camp as a blob, you could maneuver your main force around them and pummel them from various angles.

Not if they're covering the entrances with Gauss/PPC Snipers...

Most people don't want to walk into the firing lines of people with long range heavy weapons.

[RG Notch]

Agent of Change, on 13 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

ROFL

capping = griefing.

That's exactly right, you are 100% correct, you have hit the nail onf the head, I have seen teh light, hell you may have even just created world peace.

Next on the list solve world hunger by making sure everyone is eating the way I want them to eat and convince everyone that's eating different things that they are wrong. /sarcasm

So your contention is that fighting is fun and capping is not. I get that, can we also agree that opinions are, in fact, opinions and that your contention, is in fact, an opinion?

With that now taken as a given can we also agree that fighting is fun, that winning is fun, and that walking directly into a firing line of assaults kitted for power alphas who then end you in a matter of seconds is not fun.

With that established, we can then say capping to pull aforementioned alpha assaults out of position is a smart move, and that teams that don't have anything that can or will at the very least watch their glaring weakness deserves to lose if they can't defend their base?

I mean I understand that walking forward to alpha strike the enemy walking forward to alpha strike you AND thinking about whether you might be being flanked (or capped) is quite mentally taxing but lets stretch out what we think might be possible here for arguments sake. A lance with a spread of classes and roles that allow you to use and react to multiple kinds of tactics might be quite useful in a team game with role based play, crazy i know.

But you know what they say When all someone thinks they have is a hammer mount PPC's on a heavy or assault mech and cry like babies when people refuse to wander into their cross hairs. (or something like that.)

I thought I was dismissed? Still won't answer why you don't play Conquest if you want to stand in the fabled Red Square to win. I never said anything other than the fact that fighting is fun is my opinion. I simply stated that most people seem to share my opinion.
I only equate your style of cap racing in order to change people's play style as griefing. I understand that some people can't manage to do anything other than run to the Red Sqaure or wander into someone else's crosshairs. That is a failing on their part, not on other players. Somehow I and other players can manage to find other alternatives other than whining on the forums or attempting to grief people into playing our way.
I only post here to break up the echo chamber of the People of the Red Square. Over 80% of matches end without capping so it seems you have your work cut out to ruin others fun. You could always play Conquest where there are loads of Red Squares to stand in and action occurring in more diverse places. But then you couldn't get off on the griefing of those who "won't play your way". Or is wanting people to play a certain way only bad when the other side does it?
Funny I don't see threads posted defending the other way to win Assault matches, oh that's because 80% of the end that way and people seem to like it.

[Livewyr]

Wait until he reads the name...

[MaddMaxx]

I blame it on the TDM mentality myself. Case in point. Select game mode "any" Launch onto Alpine. Check Team make up. 5 Lights, all fast according to their owners. Match begins, big brawl in the center, we LOSE to a Cap point victory for the other Team. Guess what? They had 50% less Lights...

Go figure.

[stjobe]

MaddMaxx, on 13 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

I blame it on the TDM mentality myself. Case in point. Select game mode "any" Launch onto Alpine. Check Team make up. 5 Lights, all fast according to their owners. Match begins, big brawl in the center, we LOSE to a Cap point victory for the other Team. Guess what? They had 50% less Lights...

Go figure.

It's MWO Maxim #5: Defending the base is someone else's job.

Edit: Sorry, Conquest. That makes it MWO Maxim #6: Re-capping the points is someone else's job.

Edited by stjobe, 13 May 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Roland]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Not if they're covering the entrances with Gauss/PPC Snipers...

Most people don't want to walk into the firing lines of people with long range heavy weapons.

What exactly are "the entrances"?

With the exception of Forest Colony's cave, there aren't any actual indoor areas. There really aren't a whole lot of areas on any of the maps which severely limit the directions of approach. Again, the primary limitation on approach vectors for most locations stems from the fact that you aren't able to flank a force around the enemy, because doing so opens you up to being capped.