396 replies to this topic

[Dungeon Keeper]

Caustic Canid, on 15 May 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Except it's not.

Base capture is built into the game.

If the devs wanted a deathmatch, they would have made it a deathmatch.

It is. Especially after conquest mode was added and reward for cap in assault mode was reduced. The only reason base cap exists in assault is to save us from seaking last powered off spider.

[Kentiah]

Dungeon Keeper, on 15 May 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

It is. Especially after conquest mode was added and reward for cap in assault mode was reduced. The only reason base cap exists in assault is to save us from seaking last powered off spider.

Except they could have done it many other ways if they didn't want capping to be a viable way to win. Reward was reduced because it's something that's easily abused, deal with it.

[Dungeon Keeper]

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

Except they could have done it many other ways if they didn't want capping to be a viable way to win. Reward was reduced because it's something that's easily abused, deal with it.

Really? Do you have any examples?

[Joseph Mallan]

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

Except they could have done it many other ways if they didn't want capping to be a viable way to win. Reward was reduced because it's something that's easily abused, deal with it.

That would be true IF capping had net as much XP an C-Bills as fighting did. The abuse is actually the folks who want nothing but combat. Capturing the base with a full team intact should be worth as much as killing all the enemy. A bloodless victory is just as valuable to a unit as whole sale slaughter. But that lil bit of immersion was made pointless.

[Kentiah]

Dungeon Keeper, on 15 May 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Really? Do you have any examples?

It doesn't take much to think of a way to force someone to fight if they didn't want capping to be a thing. I can throw a random example, one being the final target is marked for the enemy to find (and the opposite as well), you could complain about how that takes away some tactical gameplay in the end, but you're also whining about people capturing a point that was put into the game to capture, so not sure how much of a point you're going to make here. Possibly from a realism stand-point, it could just be a form of aerial support painting the last mech, since the area is much less dangerous with only one enemy instead of many.

Can probably throw more, dunno why you ask for an example like you think it's hard to think of any though.

[I am]

Void Angel, on 15 May 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Nonsense. The problem with rush capping is that it puts combat 'mechs in an impossible position. If they leave a force back at base, they risk getting run over by a combat team. If they stay together in order to deal with the combat team, they run the risk of getting base capped. There's no way to tell for sure which is better, because there's no way to predict what the enemy team will have based on your own team comp any more. Which means you may not have enough scouts available to even cover all the approaches to your base in many maps. That's not tactical gameplay, and it's certainly not you being a smart, special player - it's just Russian Roulette with BattleMechs, and it's lowering the quality of the game.

All of which is somewhat beside the point. The above diatribe completely misrepresents the issue; no one really cares if you cap normally on most maps. It's part of the game, and everyone knows it. What's being objected to is toxic players like the poster above who rush cap in order to support their own egos at the expense of both teams. It's about premade teams of 4 Ravens who, having deliberately broken tonnage matching, rush the base with cap modules by the most covered route they can find - leaving their team as unwilling bait while they refuse combat. It's about people who abuse Alpine and Tourmaline's huge scale and too-short cap timers to make certain that no team which did not simply camp its base will be able to get back in time to stop them. This is about certain game mechanics driving negative behaviors from a minority of toxic players for their own unhealthy gratification - at everyone else's expense.

And make no mistake, this is about ego, not gameplay: it's all right there in the quote. "Were they really dumb enough...?" ".. can't fathom base defense [proper spelling and punctuation added]..." Players of this stripe are in it to get the win any way they can so that they can feel smart and superior - and the negative attention they receive in-game (and in threads like this one) are a benefit of their behavior. They don't care if their team is winning already, or would like to match their skills against the other live players on the enemy team. They don't care that they're actually doing material harm to the players on their own team by denying them combat practice, c-bills and enjoyment. This is about them getting their way, and the justified ire their behavior evokes simply serves as a means for them to pretend superiority. They slander their detractors as being stupid, and ignorant of tactics; they make up lies, claiming to know things they cannot possibly know ("most people don't need [c-bills] any more.") And they make posts advocating their toxic behavior so they can feel justified in their own eyes. After all, if you don't care if your argument is true, as long as you keep arguing you get to feel right.

That's what this thread is really about; an ego boost from arguing with the made-up bullies of the "Assault Racket," who are being mean and oppressing the smart, upright CapWarriors by pushing them around with nasty words. Sadly, this toxic little fairy tale will keep going on and on as long as we feed into it. So I guess the only thing left to say is this:

Don't feed the trolls. "To give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more multiplied reasons for misinterpretation."

That's a really fancy way of saying, I don't feel like defending my base, so you shouldn't capitalize on teh fact that I don't feel like defending my base.

Look at World of Tanks. Play a few matches above tier 2. You will see of the 15 pubs, some go left, some go right, and some stay base. That is a far cry from what you are suggesting here. Both flanks are covered. Sometimes you get a fail team, and they leave a side open, or all go flanks leaving the base open, but you see in team chat things such as "OMG no one went left, or wtf no ones defending base." Sure clumping all 15 together would would make a nice rolling ball of death, and surely eat up the flank defenders of a balanced team which spread out, but would likely result in said deathball being capped out before they accomplish their goal.

What you have here is the deathball crying, don't exploit the tactical hole we left in our strategy, which is so big you could drive an Atlas through it. You mention 4 Ravens, in a 4 man. Sure is harder when half the enemy team is of alike mind and specialize to cap you out, but that's a 4 man premade issue, that is a "allowing half a pub team to be comprosed of a single group of pals singing the same tune on ts" issue. Don't confuse the two. At least that, is a valid complaint.

Edited by I am, 15 May 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[Dungeon Keeper]

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I can throw a random example, one being the final target is marked for the enemy to find (and the opposite as well),

Will not work, you'll never catch Spider, even if you have 2 or 3 not damaged Atlases.

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Can probably throw more, dunno why you ask for an example like you think it's hard to think of any though.

I dont think you can. All games I know uses almost the same cap base mechanic.

I am, on 15 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

What you have here is the deathball crying, don't exploit the tactical hole we left in our strategy, which is so big you could drive an Atlas through it.

Do you think there is any tactic in PUG game?
I totally agree that cap is fine in 8 players group. I'm leading such groups almost everyday since they were separated from PUGs and we always have couple of lights to cover our base. But why do you want to break fun in random assault?

Edited by Dungeon Keeper, 15 May 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Kentiah]

Dungeon Keeper, on 15 May 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Will not work, you'll never catch Spider, even if you have 2 or 3 not damaged Atlases.



I dont think you can. All games I know uses almost the same cap base mechanic.

Dungeon Keeper, on 15 May 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Will not work, you'll never catch Spider, even if you have 2 or 3 not damaged Atlases.



I dont think you can. All games I know uses almost the same cap base mechanic.

You must not play many games, there are plenty games using deathmatch with no secondary objective. Regardless, the time it would take an atlas to get across some of the larger maps by the time some matches are at that point, you would time out anyway. Hell, they could also just shorten match length if all they want is death match, there would be no wasted time with points, and everyone would be forced into fighting. If someone tries to run at the end, what does it matter? The match doesn't last long, you outnumber them so you win, or they run and it's a draw, that's what you get for picking a slow mech in that situation. I'm not sure why you seem to think you deserve to win for having more inherent firepower. Playing a light mech is more dangerous, especially with many builds being able to essentially one shot them, inversely, you should be just as powerless as a light mech is caught in a bad situation/position, in scenarios where they can win by capping and you can't do anything about it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dungeon Keeper, on 15 May 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Will not work, you'll never catch Spider, even if you have 2 or 3 not damaged Atlases.

As a primary Atlas Pilot I agree. An Atlas will not catch a Spider. But my Large Lasers, PPCs, & Gauss could! Its why I count on my teams lights. If I don't have lights on my team then I accept the probability of losing to cap.

@ Kentiah I have just played a TDM in Neverwinter... What is the objective? Is there a point to just running in and slaughtering til you are killed? Respawning, & repeating? I don't see the draw of TDM.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 May 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[Kentiah]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 May 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

As a primary Atlas Pilot I agree. An Atlas will not catch a Spider. But my Large Lasers, PPCs, & Gauss could! Its why I count on my teams lights. If I don't have lights on my team then I accept the probability of losing to cap.

@ Kentiah I have just played a TDM in Neverwinter... What is the objective? Is there a point to just running in and slaughtering til you are killed? Respawning, & repeating? I don't see the draw of TDM.

PvP in Neverwinter is Domination, killing enemy players is not an objective to it, the only way to win is to win on points by owning the objectives. More importantly, being on a point prevents the enemy from getting points from it, so if you have a lead, even if at that particular moment you only have one point, you can fight on one of their points and continue to hold that lead. Enemies respawn in that mode and kills don't have any bearing on actual score to win, just on individual player score, which rewards you with more personal glory and items depending on your rank in the match (which is a little annoying as it tends to favor TRs more than anything, with kills being a major contributor to score, and them being able to essentially one shot most classes).

That being said, killing players obviously takes enemies out of the fight temporarily and allows you to force enemies off of points easier, resulting in points gained, knockbacks and such serve that purpose as well, also letting you get further towards capturing that point if you need to (whichever side has more people on the point will capture towards their favor, if there's an equal amount the capture want go either way, so knocking enemies off and ccing them is a way to capture)

I'm not exactly sure what your point was, but Neverwinter has no deathmatch game mode at all atm, and you can't win by just killing enemy players. There isn't much of a parallel at all. I'm not entirely sure if you're reading my posts correctly, cause it seems like you're arguing for my side (capping being completely acceptable) but continually quote me as if I'm not arguing that point, it's fine regardless, and maybe you were just genuinely asking what Neverwinter PvP was about.


Or you're trying to see if I play Neverwinter for some reason, which I do, but eh.

[topgun505]

With the current meta of everyone and their grandmother taking slow heavy and assault poptarts I have NO issues jumping into my 3L and using its ECM to slip by everyone and cap their arse. If you all want to go slow, fine, I will just remind you that there is more than one victory condition. You MUST have a BALANCED force and not just 8 peeps with the latest meta or you WILL have people who exploit your weakness.

Panzerman03, on 12 May 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

God, this again.

Lights don't suck.

Mediums suck because they're at a disadvantage against everything that's not a medium in almost any scenario.

Capwarriors suck and I have zero compunctions about accidentally legging them when I see them.

The problem with maneuvering in a fast brawler is that you'll always be alone when you're pugging.

[RG Notch]

Neverfar, on 14 May 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Not many people really need them anymore. If you're fixated on how many space dollars you get, you might consider that they're not happy with the 25,000 cbills they get if they're insta-cored by a bloat boat, either.

It's no one fault but yours that your only options in a lighter mech are to stand and get one shotted or skirt the map like a rodent to stand in the mystical Red Square. I'm starting to realize that many of the people of the Red Square aren't FPS type gamers. Well, not PVP gamers. I'm sure these folks dominated single player, where the bots aren't smart and even if its too tough you can turn down the difficulty to get by. They also seem to come straight from TT and seem to want dice rolling in to deal with their lacking of skills.
Fortunately, there are other options besides standing still and get one shotted and cap racing. Seems like some one is coming to the forums to QQ because people don't play the way they imagine it from TT.
I've said it before, I'll say it again 4/5 matches end with mech destruction in assault and nothing has changed lately in my experience. As to the poster above who posited that people don't care about winning, I fall into that category. I'm here to have fun and my fun doesn't involve standing around waiting for the chance that someone might try a lame cap race. I will enjoy the fighting even as the timer counts down to let the cap racer "win". If that's fun for you go for it. I encourage people to ignore it, don't insult them, it only feeds them. Don't go back, keep fighting and they will get bored of their easy "wins". Maybe they will go play conquest where capping is part of the fun. Hopefully they won't continue to ruin the fun of people who want to fight.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

PvP in Neverwinter is Domination, killing enemy players is not an objective to it, the only way to win is to win on points by owning the objectives. More importantly, being on a point prevents the enemy from getting points from it, so if you have a lead, even if at that particular moment you only have one point, you can fight on one of their points and continue to hold that lead. Enemies respawn in that mode and kills don't have any bearing on actual score to win, just on individual player score, which rewards you with more personal glory and items depending on your rank in the match (which is a little annoying as it tends to favor TRs more than anything, with kills being a major contributor to score, and them being able to essentially one shot most classes).

That being said, killing players obviously takes enemies out of the fight temporarily and allows you to force enemies off of points easier, resulting in points gained, knockbacks and such serve that purpose as well, also letting you get further towards capturing that point if you need to (whichever side has more people on the point will capture towards their favor, if there's an equal amount the capture want go either way, so knocking enemies off and ccing them is a way to capture)

I'm not exactly sure what your point was, but Neverwinter has no deathmatch game mode at all atm, and you can't win by just killing enemy players. There isn't much of a parallel at all. I'm not entirely sure if you're reading my posts correctly, cause it seems like you're arguing for my side (capping being completely acceptable) but continually quote me as if I'm not arguing that point, it's fine regardless, and maybe you were just genuinely asking what Neverwinter PvP was about.


Or you're trying to see if I play Neverwinter for some reason, which I do, but eh.

Thanks. Now I See that the objective is Conquest and no TDM.
Seriously, I need to find the Players Handbook for the game! I spent something like 20 minutes in that match not knowin what the heck my "mission" was!

[Livewyr]

********* Programming. (I spent all day yesterday programming, from right after I left the posts yesterday morning until midnight last night.)


------------------
This morning, in my fried state I wrote up an in depth post about applying Kant's moral vs Moral "Maxim" or "Universal Law" to governing how the game could be played with variety and fun.

I explored different maxims:
Cbill rewards as highest priority: (Leading to heavy/assault dominated games- monotony)
Quickest victory: (Leading to light dominated 2 minute matches- monotony and waste of time resources)
Highest Damage/Most kills: (Leading to heavy/assault games again)
Passive Aggressive: (Leading to nobody ever actually fighting, just standing off and waiting for a mistake.. in lights and meds.)

And ultimately decided on:
Impact on lucrative and positive outcome. (Positive 1st, Lucrative second)
Leading to each weight-class's use of it's strengths/efficiencies to positively impact a match in the most profound way.

The whole thing was really well done.. included definitions, examples, etc..

But right after I typed "Hope it made sense, my brain is still fried."

I hit F5.

(In Visual Studio+ that starts the debugger to see the results/failures of your code.. but everyone who was around for the great beta key lottery knows what it does in a browser...)

So, you got the very condensed version and will have to explore it yourself. I get a little bit crestfallen.

Enjoy. *sniff*

[Kentiah]

RG Notch, on 15 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

It's no one fault but yours that your only options in a lighter mech are to stand and get one shotted or skirt the map like a rodent to stand in the mystical Red Square. I'm starting to realize that many of the people of the Red Square aren't FPS type gamers. Well, not PVP gamers. I'm sure these folks dominated single player, where the bots aren't smart and even if its too tough you can turn down the difficulty to get by. They also seem to come straight from TT and seem to want dice rolling in to deal with their lacking of skills.
Fortunately, there are other options besides standing still and get one shotted and cap racing. Seems like some one is coming to the forums to QQ because people don't play the way they imagine it from TT.
I've said it before, I'll say it again 4/5 matches end with mech destruction in assault and nothing has changed lately in my experience. As to the poster above who posited that people don't care about winning, I fall into that category. I'm here to have fun and my fun doesn't involve standing around waiting for the chance that someone might try a lame cap race. I will enjoy the fighting even as the timer counts down to let the cap racer "win". If that's fun for you go for it. I encourage people to ignore it, don't insult them, it only feeds them. Don't go back, keep fighting and they will get bored of their easy "wins". Maybe they will go play conquest where capping is part of the fun. Hopefully they won't continue to ruin the fun of people who want to fight.

You're being pretty passive aggressive about this, which is pretty funny after encouraging people to not insult players capping. I'm not really sure if you see the actual issue here, people capping at the start of the match for no reason, yes, while completely valid, is kind of a waste, no one is (or should be, really) disagreeing. However acting like capping in a match is bad or something is pretty absurd. I also like the little remark about how people capping haven't played PvP games much, I also like your wording that implies being a light is a problem, which says more about the current state of the game, or its players more than anything. Regardless, I personally don't cap near the start of the match, and pull in the 5-600 damage decently often in my Jenner (yes, I should probably be running RVN 3Ls, but beagle buff soon, so eh), I prefer to fight, because it's more fun, but sometimes other mechs force your hand, or it's a good tactical advantage to go tap their base and have part of their force fall back and waste time while my main force slaughters their remains. Frankly, I hate moving slow, it feels devoid of skill and is very little good action, and it's quite a bore watching heavier mechs fight, standing around taking a million shots and slowly turning to shoot while moving at low speeds. You guys stand around firing and taking hits, when besides trying to duck behind cover, you hardly move much unless you're slowly walking towards a mech while another one backpedals. It's the least skillful thing I've ever watched, and it's pretty funny when about the most skill involved is turning between shots to try to absorb damage to other areas. The assault meta is about as skillful in most cases as just capping a point off the bat.

I personally wouldn't touch this game if there wasn't a fast moving mech, it's a bore otherwise, I would love for there to be an actual Armored Core online, Four/For Answer was probably the most fun I've had in a mech game, but wanting it won't make it happen.

[MaddMaxx]

Soy, on 14 May 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Did you study hyperbole in school today or something.

Just note where it is he calls home. LOL! We call that stuff he wrote Make-No! btw. Not hyperbole.

[MaddMaxx]

Keifomofutu, on 14 May 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Don't spend the 35,000 cbills all in one place.

And be sure to polish up that W real nice. They look real good when polished with the Tears of those who can't be arsed to defend their base and get the other option. An L. LOL!

[RG Notch]

MaddMaxx, on 15 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

And be sure to polish up that W real nice. They look real good when polished with the Tears of those who can't be arsed to defend their base and get the other option. An L. LOL!

When you're that concerned with winning, your normal state is usually losing. Some folks are going to be real upset when their major accomplishment in life, their uber W/L record gets wiped. Me, I'll be having fun fighting whether I get a meaningless W or L on my semi permanent record. Play for the W, I'll play for the fun and win every time!

[MaddMaxx]

MrZakalwe, on 15 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

The real problem with this is that approached logically the only real strategy that is actually viable is to take a defensible position somewhere with enough cover to poptart that has good lines of sight on its approaches and is rather close to your base.

And camp there.

Nobody does this because it is painfully tedious.

P.S. got some friends who sometimes run 4 lights with cap modules. Caps long before anybody can get back.

Well according to some, that tedious wait, the one that is so painful, will last less than 2 minutes, (minus the travel time to said Camp grounds just outside of said Base) then that 4 man Cap group will have arrived and all that is required is to have one friendly Mech be on the base and hold out until the fat arses get back to help out.

Certainly if the argument is to fight and not cap, the first to arrive back at base will at least get what they desire, a fight...right? Or do the fights now have to be Fair as well?

[MaddMaxx]

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

snip
"people capping at the start of the match for no reason"

The reason is to Win. It is Simple. Poetic and ultimately, Defensible.

RG Notch, on 15 May 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

When you're that concerned with winning, your normal state is usually losing. Some folks are going to be real upset when their major accomplishment in life, their uber W/L record gets wiped. Me, I'll be having fun fighting whether I get a meaningless W or L on my semi permanent record. Play for the W, I'll play for the fun and win every time!

That being the case, a proper one I might add, then why gross on those who have their FUN doing something other than what you perceive to be FUN?

So it is your FUN or no FUN? Is that it?