140 replies to this topic

[Hammertrial]

ElliottTarson, on 14 May 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Voted Yes. Nothing needs to be nerfed atm, i can't think of any build i've run up against that there isn't an effective counter for. If you're seriously having that much of an issue with poptarts, in a Spider, then you need to learn situational awareness. I don't pilot light mechs often (Medium/Heavy for me), but when I do I rarely get hit by any kind of long range fire. I generally move cover to cover, as if I were playing a twitch FPS, and it seems to work just fine. By the time the snipers even see me, i'm too close and too fast for them to get anything like a bead.

Try it, might work for you too. If not, well, everyone has their own playstyle...it's good to remember that when you're out in the field.

Elliott


Maybe they don't WANT to. Not everyone plays games with "WiN WIN WIN" in mind at all times. I like to win as much as the next guy, but i'll take a good ole' fashioned brawl and lose over *Jumpjet, shoot, land, jumpjet, shoot, land..."

Talk about boring.

So spider pilots play to lose, rather than just having a balanced game where they aren't one shot away from being killed instantly.

Janus Wealth, on 14 May 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

This is your personal opinion and nothing more. You have no proof.


How would one of those changes stop you from beeing a one-shot?

A cone of fire for each weapon would result in multiple locations being hit rather than focused on one. A spider can take a 6 ppc blast if all of the hit locations were rolled as they are in TT, which could be represented in game as a cone of fire.

blinkin, on 14 May 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

light mechs are supposed to be fragile. it is the price they pay for being able to move up to 3x the speed of most assault mechs.

rear armor on any mech is much softer than front armor. you don't need nearly as much fire power. a good light pilot shouldn't even allow one of those pop tarts to look at him.

run in hit their weak spots, then run around a corner, wash, rinse, and repeat. i know this is possible because i have personally juggled 2 assaults and a heavy with my jenner. just don't ever let yourself get bogged down in a fight. if you are trading shots then you have already lost. if they are even looking at you then abandon that approach and try a new angle.

if you are doing things right you shouldn't ever be tempted to fire more than 2 volleys on any given attack run. there are exceptions for really dumb or slow targets, but in general you should just line up your bombing run, fire, and then run away.

many will circle a target, but any decent pilot will figure that out and turn the opposite direction to catch them when they pass.

Apoc1138, on 15 May 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

move faster and less predictably, what engine do you have in that spider?

LordDante, on 15 May 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

@ OP stop being terribad ! move ur popo for christ sake standing still in a spider is lethal ,never ever stand stil and no not even behind an atlas. In a spider its all about drive by shooting. go to the TGds and practise that, use jj for quick directional changes. did i mention never to stand still ??? i know leveling up spiders is like hollidays in hell but its worth it . once u have masterd the 5d ur the ultimate scout ! its even more fun than PLAYING WITH MY WANG, and playing WITH MY WANG is lots of fun. so get a grip learn, watch the pros on ytube and u will have the most satysfying ( but not rewarding in a cb way ) fun there is .

All of these aren't solutions, they're hoping that you're infinitely more skilled than your opponent. "We'll if he can't figure out how to shoot you you can live!"

Reversing around corners does nothing when everyone is walking around with target decay.
Dodging and weaving does nothing against a skilled opponent who only needs one shot compared to your 10-20 to kill you. And it's not even his one shot, half the enemy team carries a 35+ alpha these days, so good luck ducking and weaving multiple opponents that require multi minute investments in damage to take down that will eliminate you in split seconds

[MustrumRidcully]

I tend to think instant-kill shots are bad for the game. It will be difficult to avoid this entirely with low-weight mechs without making the constraints on alpha damage itself ridicilous.

I think forcing people to chain-fire more (by lowering the heat capacity and/or other methods) could at least alleviate the worst.

[Apoc1138]

you quoted me and then didn't actually answer my question - what engine do you run?

you also don't engage in open combat with a superior force, you sneak around, target for your friendlies and take shots at targets of opportunity - preferably in the back

tapping maximum throttle and not running in a straight line are not elite skills, they are basic ones
moving slowly or moving in a straight line is an open gift to a half decent sniper

that isn't to say that PPC's are not mildly overpowered at the moment (which I said they would be and that it would also be hilarious), but there are also steps you can take to mitigate their overpowered-ness in this type of case

if you are moving, then their convergence should be off as they are leading the target, so they shouldn't even be landing all shots on the the same section

Edited by Apoc1138, 15 May 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Hammertrial]

Apoc1138, on 15 May 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

you quoted me and then didn't actually answer my question - what engine do you run?

you also don't engage in open combat with a superior force, you sneak around, target for your friendlies and take shots at targets of opportunity - preferably in the back

tapping maximum throttle and not running in a straight line are not elite skills, they are basic ones
moving slowly or moving in a straight line is an open gift to a half decent sniper

I'm not OP, and I don't run spiders.

Doesn't change the fact that no matter what you do, IT ONLY TAKES ONE SHOT, lucky or otherwise? Are you playing such terrible players that snipers can't compensate for random turns? With nearly hitscan PPCs? Really?

Have you played against people like Lord Azurescenes or Cartman whatever the number is? Because they WILL hit you before you can kill them with a lights armament, especially a spiders and super especially a 5Ks. Especially when you have 8 other enemies to account for at all times.

You could be the most crack shot amazing spider in existance and a 2 year old could hit you and kill you in a single salvo.


Poptarts arguments against 1 shotting boiled into a nutshell: well, if your Elo sucks and you fight terribad snipers that aren't near the other 8 snipers on the team and don't look behind them and can't shoot for ****, well, you can beat them! And thats totes balanced because TT and such as and don't worry about the whole random hit location in TT that compensated for high alphas because screw you that's why.

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hammertrial, on 15 May 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

I'm not OP, and I don't run spiders.

Doesn't change the fact that no matter what you do, IT ONLY TAKES ONE SHOT, lucky or otherwise? Are you playing such terrible players that snipers can't compensate for random turns? With nearly hitscan PPCs? Really?

Have you played against people like Lord Azurescenes or Cartman whatever the number is? Because they WILL hit you before you can kill them with a lights armament, especially a spiders and super especially a 5Ks. Especially when you have 8 other enemies to account for at all times.

You could be the most crack shot amazing spider in existance and a 2 year old could hit you and kill you in a single salvo.

Sounds like those two have good hand eye coordination IYAM. If the 2 YO had the right weapon load, you are right. And that is Fair. You know Luck does count for something in a game where Point and Click is the main skill required.

[sC4r]

i was one shoted in spider... honestly how can you complain? spider has like... no armor

as most lights dodge it or die

[Diablobo]

It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have massive pinpoint alpha strikes. We need to have weapons not hit the exact same spot so easily. I think maybe even turning the PPC into a hitscan weapon would help. Then we would only have to worry about the dual gauss and AC20 hits.

[Hammertrial]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 May 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Sounds like those two have good hand eye coordination IYAM. If the 2 YO had the right weapon load, you are right. And that is Fair. You know Luck does count for something in a game where Point and Click is the main skill required.

But it shouldn't be an all or nothing gamble to play anything that isn't a heavy/assault. It makes lights/cicadas exclusively cap rushers because they can't risk spotting (not to mention there is little point as a fast heavy is way better at it by not being a complete detriment to the team), especially those without ECM, and all it takes is a casual look at the maps and modes thread to see how people feel about that. And makes all but the centurion in the medium bracket nearly obsolete, and that's only viable because it's nearly impossible to kill with it's tiny CT.

Mechwarrior was all about the grind, the brawl. Armor was doubled to make everything more durable, to make multi-minute brawls with srms flying, lasers slowly burning through armor.

Now it's a ******** twitch shooter.

If the books were written anything like the present game they would have been 10 pages long.

"And Justin Allard aimed his 2 AC/20s at all those opposed them, and obliterated their faces. Until sneaky nooblet the poptart appeared in the air and shot him with 4 PPCs and a guass rifle straight to the center torso. The end."

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Ralgas]

bottom line is don't run in straight lines, don't stand still and use cover. If i had a dollar for every light pilot i've smoked like you mention because they stood completely still 5m behind a teammate thinking they were safe or expecting their speed to save them running straight at me in a straight line.........

And the convergence/cone of fire crowd is wrong if the above is used. As mentioned, convergence is no good when it's centered on the next hill/horizon because you have to give the damn things a 3 mech lead to connect on the run

[Livewyr]

Hammertrial, on 14 May 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

The fact that you just said a spider can have a disproportional impact of the game makes your entire statement invalid.

A fail poptart has more impact on the game than a spider, because he only has to get lucky once.

Scout Spider sneaking around the fight and stepping onto an undefended cap just changed that whole match in a split second.

Let's see the Jumpsniper do that...

-----------------------------------------------

As far the OP: If you're getting oneshot at long range- you need to be moving when in sight of the enemy. (Or heck, even when you're in the open.)

[Prezimonto]

Christ, you guys seem to think I'm a total noob. I've been playing spiders for months now. I've never had this happen before. I don't run with low armor(max armor on torsos and legs at the least). I'm not asking for advice on how to play.

I'm commenting that it's broken that a full armor side torso can be one shot at over 800 range.

I don't mind double ac20's or double gauss... one shot will not kill me. double ac20's have to get into range an hit me, double gauss are slow enough that when I'm moving at long range they've got to be phenomenal to hit me... and it won't kill me... not even a pure headshot.

For those of you to say lights aren't for new players: what mechs are cheapest(answer unintuitively is medium mechs that don't need XL engines)? At what point do new players get told, "don't buy that light mech it's hard to play." Are there light mechs in the Trial line-up?

I'm stating this loud and clear. It is a not good for this game to have builds that can one shot any mech at long range. Again, I don't mind 40 damage alphas... at short range... 30damage at long range.... 50 to 60 damage at long range with 2000m/s speed = broken. AC2's actually have to aim, over and over and over to deal 40 damage to the same hard point.

As for how the things I suggested will help matters: locks on's for convergence and long range = a little more time to run, dealing with perfect convergence will = damage spread across at least 2 hard points because I don't totally suck, energy system = damage spread across at least 2 hard points, serious overheating penalties = less 5+PPC builds becuase they will have real penalties to the playstyle, slower PPC rounds = more time to run.

This devs actively traded double armor and lowered fire times to make the game more dymanic than TT and to give mechs a little bit of wiggle room by not being one shotted.... so why is it okay that this can now happen?

[Hammertrial]

Livewyr, on 15 May 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Scout Spider sneaking around the fight and stepping onto an undefended cap just changed that whole match in a split second.

Let's see the Jumpsniper do that...

-----------------------------------------------

As far the OP: If you're getting oneshot at long range- you need to be moving when in sight of the enemy. (Or heck, even when you're in the open.)

And what does he get for his efforts? A higher Elo bracket with better players that will one shot him more often than his current situation, and facing more poptarts, 25k cbills, and 300 xp.

At those rates, it'd take roughly 250 matches to master one variant of the spider (75k xp), and 520 matches to buy and deck out a real mech (at an estimated cost of 13 million cbills).

He will also be able to buy a 15k gxp module after 1000 matches!


Winning!!

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[Triple Patte]

Not saying this is your case, but most lights I see crying after I nail them with dual ac20s are not moving. Even if you said you've been piloting lights for months, this meta is relatively new. Every time you get nailed by PPCs or gausses or whatever, you should take note of where you were and what you did. I can garantee you'll see trends appear. (for the record the dual AC20s is new for me, I've been a commando/cicada pilot for a good while)

Now as for cone of fire, that would not help. Instead of being one-shot by 4 ppcs every 4-5 attempts by snipers (and don't tell me they get you every time, I'll ust tell you to L2P) you would get hit by one PPC every time even by people with no skills. There is a reason people hunt birds with shotguns, they're easier to hit that way. What you are asking (cone of fire) is a freaking PPC shotgun with a huge range and unlimited ammo. That would actually help heavies and assaults waaaay more than lights.

Also, if you're running fast enough (and not towards the sniper) you will screw with their convergence and the PPCs should hit you in 2-3 places. If you are getting 1 location 1 shotted often, you have to L2P. (of course there are cases with people having 3 ppcs in the same location so no convergence issue, but those mech are so easy to disarm it's funny).

[Joseph Mallan]

Hammertrial, on 15 May 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

If the books were written anything like the present game they would have been 10 pages long.

"And Justin Allard aimed his 2 AC/20s at all those opposed them, and obliterated their faces. Until sneaky nooblet the poptart appeared in the air and shot him with 4 PPCs and a guass rifle straight to the center torso. The end."

And you are expecting everyone to want to play like the books? on't get me wrong. I don't have boats (excluding my AC20 Jager). But using the Fluff of TT I killed thousands of Mechs over the years in 20 seconds or less(2 turns). Also I could have written ha out a bit more colorfully.

Oh yeah, all the books follow TT rules so No Pop tarting in them.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 May 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Apoc1138]

Hammertrial, on 15 May 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

I'm not OP, and I don't run spiders.

Doesn't change the fact that no matter what you do, IT ONLY TAKES ONE SHOT, lucky or otherwise? Are you playing such terrible players that snipers can't compensate for random turns? With nearly hitscan PPCs? Really?

see, the thing about RANDOM turns is that they are RANDOM, meaning that no, they can't be compensated for... it takes a skilled or very very lucky sniper to take out a moving spider at long range, so if I get one shotted in my spider I give that pilot a round of applause, not come on the forums to cry about how my no-armour mech gets killed by assault mechs if I stand still round after round

if you don't like light mechs, no armour, and you prefer to stand still a lot, then maybe stop playing in light mechs?

PPC's are not hit scan, fire directly at a target moving 150kmh at 800m (the range the OP seems to have an issue with) and you will miss, everytime... lead the target and convergence means you are less likely to be hitting the same location on the target mech even if you do hit

Edited by Apoc1138, 15 May 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Hammertrial]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 May 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

And you are expecting everyone to want to play like the books? on't get me wrong. I don't have boats (excluding my AC20 Jager). But using the Fluff of TT I killed thousands of Mechs over the years in 20 seconds or less(2 turns). Also I could have written ha out a bit more colorfully.

Oh yeah, all the books follow TT rules so No Pop tarting in them.

No it was just a bit of hyperbole.

And in TT boating was used, but you couldn't boat 6 ppcs to any great effect. You'd either shut down or miss every shot due to heat penalties that aren't present in this game.

And still, I rather get hit by 1-2 ppcs in 3-6 locations than 6 in one, any day.

Apoc1138, on 15 May 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

see, the thing about RANDOM turns is that they are RANDOM, meaning that no, they can't be compensated for... it takes a skilled or very very lucky sniper to take out a moving spider at long range, so if I get one shotted in my spider I give that pilot a round of applause, not come on the forums to cry about how my no-armour mech gets killed by assault mechs if I stand still round after round

if you don't like light mechs, no armour, and you prefer to stand still a lot, then maybe stop playing in light mechs?

PPC's are not hit scan, fire directly at a target moving 150kmh at 800m (the range the OP seems to have an issue with) and you will miss, everytime... lead the target and convergence means you are less likely to be hitting the same location on the target mech even if you do hit

It takes .4s for a ppc to go 800m

A light moves 16m in that .4s

If the light was moving in essentially a circle around the mech with the mech at the center point the perimeter of the circle is 5024m.

16m/5024m = .003 radians

1 radian = 57.2957795 degrees

The light moves .17 degrees in an arc.

If you shoot at a Jenners nose, you hit it. No leading, no nothing. Shoot at the Jenners face, at least hit its rear. And that's only if they are running completely tangential to you essentially, if they are turning parallel to your facing it's a completely direct shot, which you know, happens when you turn...

And if you think a SUDDEN RANDOM TURN changes anything in this you need to learn math. In .4s there is no chance for that Jenner to change deviation that would pull it out of the path of fire of the PPCs. There is no hairpin turn that quick that anything other than a complete and instantaneous stop would be death.

Now let's look at guass.

This time the Jenner has .67s to react, giving him 27.9m of leeway.

Same circle, this now accounts for .32 degrees, and as you would expect with nearly double the time it's very possible an anchor turn would save the Jenners life, or at least make it an arm, ST hit rather than a facial.


And why do you keep acting like lights are standing still? Only my 3 ERPPC Jenner does that. No one in any light ever isn't running unless they're stuck on various terrain or rubber banding through teammates/enemies. Doesn't change the fact that ITS STILL A SINGLE SHOT IN A FULLY ARMORED LIGHT.


Essentially, if you miss with PPCs at a Jenner at 800m with current projectile speeds, it's not that the Jenner is good, it's that you're freaking awful.

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Prezimonto]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 May 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

I tend to think instant-kill shots are bad for the game. It will be difficult to avoid this entirely with low-weight mechs without making the constraints on alpha damage itself ridicilous. I think forcing people to chain-fire more (by lowering the heat capacity and/or other methods) could at least alleviate the worst.

Something like this is all I'm talking about. I DO NOT MIND 40 damage alpha strikes... they CAN NOT me in one shot to front torso armor. Apparently 50 damage alpha's can.

Here's what it boils down to: it's not fun to die within 30's of match start to someone you can't see. If you could take ONE hit... you move... okay he's there, I'm f'ed up... don't go that way.

I don't mind if I come out in the red even... after one hit... I made a mistake(maybe), but a spider has 28 armor on each leg and I've got 21 front armor on my RT/LT... to lose all the armor and all the HP from a single hit at long range... it's bad mechanics. This isn't CS with AWP's... except it's getting to be that way for light players.

Edited by Prezimonto, 15 May 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Syllogy]

Spiders that use jump jets and run in a evasive manner tend to live longer. True story.

[Prezimonto]

Hellcat420, on 14 May 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

light mechs are not supposed to be able to stand up to the firepower of larger mechs.

I don't expect to stand up to the damage... I'm not a brawler to trade shots... I'm saying... no mech should DIE is one shot unless it's a high alpha head shot.

[Prezimonto]

Syllogy, given the post just before yours clearly states that this thread is not about garnering advice... go be unhelpful and nonconstructive somewhere else please.