140 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

had to vote yes and i hate the current game design. an alpha strike from an assault should gut a spider.

[zraven7]

Dude, you're in a spider...

Edited by zraven7, 15 May 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Syllogy]

Prezimonto, on 15 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Syllogy, given the post just before yours clearly states that this thread is not about garnering advice... go be unhelpful and nonconstructive somewhere else please.

Sorry, I thought I was being helpful.

I will be clear: Yes. I think Spiders should get gutted by high-damage-output Heavies and Assaults. The greatest strengths of a Light Mech is their speed and their size. Use those to your advantage, and getting 1-shot will not be so common.

[zraven7]

Prezimonto, on 15 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Syllogy, given the post just before yours clearly states that this thread is not about garnering advice... go be unhelpful and nonconstructive somewhere else please.

You're shooting down Syllogy's advice? You realize, a lot of us regular players STILL go to him with questions, right?

[Syllogy]

zraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

You're shooting down Syllogy's advice? You realize, a lot of us regular players STILL go to him with questions, right?

As helpful as I can be, I still troll people on the forums though.

The biggest difference between me and most trolls is that I try to point out flaws in their logic in order to shoot holes in their ideas.

[zraven7]

Syllogy, on 15 May 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

As helpful as I can be, I still troll people on the forums though.

The biggest difference between me and most trolls is that I try to point out flaws in their logic in order to shoot holes in their ideas.

Which is fine, but you still know your stuff, as opposed to Mr. "why can't my spider block an AC20 with his nipples?" here.

[Prezimonto]

While I lol'ed the the DB video... again... it's a terribly unfun mechanic if at 800+ range you can kill a mech in one hit. It doesn't matter what mech. It's exacerbated by the fact that it's totally unbalancing and so flavor of the month because there are no significant penalties that outweigh the benefits... meaning 2 or 3 mechs in a match right now, on each team, are capable of doing this.

Again, I don't mind if I have even a chance to identify the enemy (LOS) and know what's coming, that's my fault if I let it happen. Dual AC20's(range limited), dual gauss (not enough damage), 4ppc (not quite enough damage), 5+ppc... are broken. Nothing else comes even close to being able to dish that kind of PINPOINT damage at that range, all at once. Even dedicated sniper builds with dual gauss are weight limited. quad AC2's need to hit you 5 to 6 times in the same spot. Slow down the PPC shots to pre-buff levels and you'd be able to see them coming and hop, or dodge, or swerve... or something... spread them into a shotgun, and they'll hurt bad, really bad... but not kill a mech.

One last time... I'm not saying a Spider shouldn't be messed up after taking a assault alpha.... probably within one more shot/follow-up of dying. But outright death is just bad and it shouldn't be able to happen without a headshot.

I'm really not arguing very far off of what most of you are saying.... I'm saying that for game balance this kind of a situation (long range alpha's on pinpoint areas for enough damage to kill a mech outright other than a headshot) shouldn't happen.

Edited by Prezimonto, 15 May 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Deathlike]

The best you can do at the moment is to stick an ER Large or Pulse Large and learn to use them effectively in a 5K.

Frankly, MGs (both pre and post buff) will make the 5K a natural death trap, so learning to be elite in a spider does require serious effort. Spiders are not for newbies.

Just wait until the Flea is released... then one-shotting it will be the new PGI pastime.

[zraven7]

Prezimonto, on 15 May 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

While I lol'ed the the DB video... again... it's a terribly unfun mechanic if at 800+ range you can kill a mech in one hit. It doesn't matter what mech. It's exacerbated by the fact that it's totally unbalancing and so flavor of the month because there are no significant penalties that outweigh the benefits... meaning 2 or 3 mechs in a match right now, on each team, are capable of doing this.

Again, I don't mind if I have even a chance to identify the enemy (LOS) and know what's coming, that's my fault if I let it happen. Dual AC20's(range limited), dual gauss (not enough damage), 4ppc (not quite enough damage), 5+ppc... are broken. Nothing else comes even close to being able to dish that kind of PINPOINT damage at that range, all at once. Even dedicated sniper builds with dual gauss are weight limited. quad AC2's need to hit you 5 to 6 times in the same spot. Slow down the PPC shots to pre-buff levels and you'd be able to see them coming and hop, or dodge, or swerve... or something... spread them into a shotgun, and they'll hurt bad, really bad... but not kill a mech.

I play a Jenner all the time, dude, and they have a MUCH larger CT hotbox than a spider. Your fault isn't "not identifying line of fire", it's not assuming that there is something with 5 PPCs around every corner. Lights can, and should be able to be, one hit. It's the trade-off for being able to run double or triple the speed of everyone else, all the while being the size of their leg. Play more paranoid, or swap up to a heavy.

[Prezimonto]

Again the subtle inference that I'm just bad. I do fine in spiders, normally(have all three basiced out and the 5D elited). Certainly positive win rates in all 3 and all around 1.7 Wins/Loss. That's playing 50/50 assault/conquest... it would go up if I only played conquest. I'm not bad in these mechs. Before, last night this had not happened to me without it being a headshot and I'm honestly horrified that it can happen to say nothing of happening 3 matches in a row.

My win rate tells me I'm not bad at piloting these things, the fact that I've pushed all three into elite skills should give anyone a good idea of how many games I've played in them... so those numbers aren't just a 10 match freak occurrence.

Edited by Prezimonto, 15 May 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Hammertrial]

zraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I play a Jenner all the time, dude, and they have a MUCH larger CT hotbox than a spider. Your fault isn't "not identifying line of fire", it's not assuming that there is something with 5 PPCs around every corner. Lights can, and should be able to be, one hit. It's the trade-off for being able to run double or triple the speed of everyone else, all the while being the size of their leg. Play more paranoid, or swap up to a heavy.

And assaults shouldn't be able to fire 6 ppcs without incinerating themselves...but here we are.

[Kyone Akashi]

jeffsw6, on 14 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

It's not just spiders. We all know it isn't. I almost never get to engage the enemies without a whole section of armor red or wiped out, even in my Atlas. It's not because I'm terribad. It's because PPCs have unlimited ammo, jump-jets and huge range eliminate consequences of over-heat, gauss ammo/ton is too high, and these weapons are all basically effective inside brawling range, as well as at extreme range. [...]

Again, PPC damage should drop inside 180m to zero damage inside 90m; and its heat should be raised (slightly.) The ERPPC should have a significant heat increase and its damage drop-off should put it at zero damage by 1200m (just outside LRM range.) Over-heating should blow up one of your heat-sinks. Falling while shut down (as in, jump-jet over-heating) should be a crippling mistake that severely damages your legs. Not to mention that even if you do overheat you'll simply fall back into cover on your own, whereas a 'Mech that had to move out of it on legs will remain exposed to enemy fire.

These are not unreasonable nerfs to pop-tart snipers. They would force them into a dedicated sniper role, separating the effective snipers from the noobs who do it because it's currently the easiest way to play the game.

Whilst I agree that the jump-snipers are an issue in that they twist the traditional brawl-focused gameplay experience into something less enjoyable, I don't think it is the PPC that needs adjustment. The Particle Projector Cannon as a single weapon seems perfectly fine to me. It is the way of how a segment of the playerbase has begun to use them that needs to be looked at - specifically the ease with which accurate shots can be landed whilst jump-jetting, which (due to a considerable smaller exposure time) is much less dangerous than moving out of and back into cover on legs.

The problem extends to Gauss rifles as well, and I think suggestions such as a JJ weapon drag (the gun taking longer to align to the crosshair) or a moderate screen shake whilst jumping (enough so to make long range shots more difficult, yet not enough to truly be of concern in close range combat) might provide an adequate solution to the problem.

I'm using a (read: one) PPC on my CN9-AL, too, though, so of course I may not be entirely unbiased with this judgment.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 15 May 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Braggart]

Tombstoner, on 15 May 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

had to vote yes and i hate the current game design. an alpha strike from an assault should gut a spider.

try and alpha a spider in table top, see where that gets you. It wont result in a instagibbed mech.

[Hammertrial]

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

try and alpha a spider in table top, see where that gets you. It wont result in a instagibbed mech.

High heat alphas will also cause shutdowns and explosions rather than haha FIRE ALL THE PPCS, and if they somehow managed to not shutdown/explode, there was little chance of them ever hitting the spider afterwards.

But of course they conviently cite TT as "why lights should die fast" and completely ignore it when you point out that each of their favored builds IS A BOMB in TT.

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[zraven7]

Prezimonto, on 15 May 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Again the subtle inference that I'm just bad. I do fine in spiders, normally(have all three basiced out and the 5D elited). Certainly positive win rates in all 3 and all around 1.7 Wins/Loss. That's playing 50/50 assault/conquest... it would go up if I only played conquest. I'm not bad in these mechs. Before, last night this had not happened to me without it being a headshot and I'm honestly horrified that it can happen to say nothing of happening 3 matches in a row.

My win rate tells me I'm not bad at piloting these things, the fact that I've pushed all three into elite skills should give anyone a good idea of how many games I've played in them... so those numbers aren't just a 10 match freak occurrence.

I'm not saying you're not good. I'm saying GET BETTER. you're playing the light mech everyone loves to hate. Spiders are almost as reviled as Ravens, and I'm not even sure why. Maybe they just look irritating. Who knows? But people will focus you a surprising amount of the time.

And yes, in TT, you'd blow up if you tried to fire 6 PPCs. However, this is not Table Top. If it were, a lot more things would kill you a lot quicker. AC20s in TT are TERRIFYING. Accept that this is a different game, and just learn some strategy on top of those twitch-gameplay skills.

[Howdy Doody]

I only wish that while in my Spider and I get legged doing 150kph is that I would go out of control and lawn dart a building....instead of insta-slow and start the limp. We need some dramatic high speed crashes!

Anytime I get legged I just Jet as high as I can go. Give the others the thrill of blowing me out of the sky!

Love my Spider, even dying in it!

[Hammertrial]

zraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I'm not saying you're not good. I'm saying GET BETTER. you're playing the light mech everyone loves to hate. Spiders are almost as reviled as Ravens, and I'm not even sure why. Maybe they just look irritating. Who knows? But people will focus you a surprising amount of the time.

And yes, in TT, you'd blow up if you tried to fire 6 PPCs. However, this is not Table Top. If it were, a lot more things would kill you a lot quicker. AC20s in TT are TERRIFYING. Accept that this is a different game, and just learn some strategy on top of those twitch-gameplay skills.

How can you get cored any quicker than instantly? I am curious. And why is it okay to keep the instagib all the lights aspect of TT, and not the "you'd be a walking bomb" aspect of TT.

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[RG Notch]

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

try and alpha a spider in table top, see where that gets you. It wont result in a instagibbed mech.

So the answer is to fire once every ten seconds and roll for hit locations.

[zraven7]

Hammertrial, on 15 May 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

How can you get cored any quicker than instantly? I am curious. And why is it okay to keep the instagib all the lights aspect of TT, and not the "you'd be a walking bomb" aspect of TT.

I'm not against overheat damage, actually. However, I'm pretty sure that there is a build that lets you get one (1) alpha off with 6 ppcs and not shutdown. Even then, I'm sure one lets you get a 5ppc alpha fine.

[Hammertrial]

zraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

I'm not against overheat damage, actually. However, I'm pretty sure that there is a build that lets you get one (1) alpha off with 6 ppcs and not shutdown. Even then, I'm sure one lets you get a 5ppc alpha fine.

With a cap of 30, you'd need 45 sinks worth of drain, or 23 DHS in order to get below shutdown.

With the way MWO is set up with engine heat sinks, even with all doubles being doubles this is impossible as you can only fit 18 DHS with the 300 engine and available crit slots. With clan doubles and ERPPCs it becomes possible, but you are threading the line with every shot.

In current MWO its PPC all day every day because of the heat cap being tied to DHS and the lowered heat, but same damage.