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Sooo... I Was 1 Shot 3 In A Row Today...


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Poll: Is this good for game play? (144 member(s) have cast votes)

Is this good for game play?

  1. yes (66 votes [45.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 45.83%

  2. no (66 votes [45.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 45.83%

  3. abstain (12 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

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#81 zraven7

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:


No one would ever bring a Spider (in a serious match) to a high ELO match because of that insta-gib.

Infact it's the reason Lights and Mediums are starting to disappear from the game.

The problem is, I'm fine with Pilot Skill. But right now it's not even Pilot Skill. I suck, I'm on a sucky laptop half the time. And even I can pop-tart and hit things with PPC's due to the obscene travel time and convergence.

Which is why people are stating, make torso weapons shoot in a straight line. Then the skill is knowing when to alpha, and how much adjusting you need to do to make the left torso and right torso weapons hit the same spot while chain firing.

That way it is not random. And it is skill based.

Torso weapons would be mounted on turrets or actuators, just like everything else on a mech.

I honestly don't get the problem. It is never an issue for me. Every once in a while I take a massive alpha and explode, and I think "Well, shouldn't have moved THERE" and go onto the next match.

Expect sniper fire when crossing valleys and open areas. Move strategically. Have your teamies tell you were things are, and call out grid references.

#82 Kmieciu

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostPrezimonto, on 15 May 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that's the swing speed of your arms from your center torso.... not convergence of weapon fire over range.

Nope. That's arm reflex. (<Bonus attribute="MechArmSpeed" value="0.15"/>
)

I'm talking about Pinpoint (<Bonus attribute="WeaponConvergence" value="0.15"/)

#83 Hammertrial

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:45 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 15 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

How about you fire once every 0.5 seconds, all 6 PPCs in a sequence? Let's see if you can "alpha" strike that Spider to death now. If you can, you deserve it(, or your target.)


How about firing 6 PPCs at once making you explode instantly rather than looking at your x% heat, and going, huh...think I'll do that again, and having no ill effects if you shut down in a benefitial location.

#84 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:48 AM

View Postzraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Torso weapons would be mounted on turrets or actuators, just like everything else on a mech.


Can you show me where it says all weapons on torsos are mounted on turrents or actuators?

And I would ask you how you think it's good for the game that it is like that...but I have a hard time respecting most of your opinions after the Cap-Thread spam you started.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 May 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#85 Braggart

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:49 AM

View Postzraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Torso weapons would be mounted on turrets or actuators, just like everything else on a mech.

I honestly don't get the problem. It is never an issue for me. Every once in a while I take a massive alpha and explode, and I think "Well, shouldn't have moved THERE" and go onto the next match.

Expect sniper fire when crossing valleys and open areas. Move strategically. Have your teamies tell you were things are, and call out grid references.


I cant take you seriously............................................. The idea that you are constantly in cover and never worry about alpha is laughable. LAUGHABLE.

#86 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:51 AM

as someone who has dropped almost 300 matches in the spider - yes 1 shots can happen. however, if you are careful they are not very common. it is a very light mech, assaults should be able to 1 shot it.

#87 RG Notch

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostBraggart, on 15 May 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:


Regardless, in Table top is pretty much impossible to drop alpha strikes all on the same spot. its as easy as point and shoot here, whether it hits what you want, the arm or the torso isnt important, what is important is that those 3 ppcs, or 2 ac 20 just hit the same spot, which required no skill.

Rolling dice does however require skill?

#88 zraven7

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:


Can you show me where it says all weapons on torsos are mounted on turrents or actuators?

And I would ask you how you think it's good for the game that it is like that...but I have a hard time respecting most of your opinions after the Cap-Thread spam you started.

Looking for more, but found this relatively quickly.

http://bg.battletech...4.html#msg96344

Check the answer to the top question. "Paul" is Paul Sjardijn, a prominent writer for Battletech.

Also, this thread is not about Base Capture Mechanic. I've made my views on that very clear in other posts, and will not discuss it here. Whether or not I agree with Prezimonto, I am not going to participate in hijacking his thread. Keep it on topic, please.

#89 Hammertrial

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 15 May 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Rolling dice does however require skill?


Yes? Because in TT you had plenty of modifiers to improve/decrease your chances of an actual hit. Moving? That's a decrease. Enemy moving? That's a decrease. Running at 90% heat? You bet that's a decrease.

Here. While charging at 80 kph and 99% heat, SCREW YOU IM FIRING ALL MY LASERS PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW and having them hit exactly where you're pointing.

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 11:05 AM.


#90 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

View Postzraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Looking for more, but found this relatively quickly.

http://bg.battletech...4.html#msg96344

Check the answer to the top question. "Paul" is Paul Sjardijn, a prominent writer for Battletech.

Also, this thread is not about Base Capture Mechanic. I've made my views on that very clear in other posts, and will not discuss it here. Whether or not I agree with Prezimonto, I am not going to participate in hijacking his thread. Keep it on topic, please.


Was not changing the topic, was challenging your sanity and why I should take any argument you make seriously. Everything you do on these boards has a bearing on how seriously someone takes you in other threads. That is why it's relevant. It has nothing to do with base capping itself.

And that post doesn't really point me to anything concrete, other than to say one persons view on it. While he has more clout than you, it really doesn't answer my question.

This concept of all torso weapons being able to move and set convergence within tiny increments of time to fire with pinpoint accuracy does not make sense.

#91 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:09 AM

And I just looked up that writer, he wrote one source book or whatever in 2011.

I take it back, I don't really care what he said.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 May 2013 - 11:11 AM.


#92 RG Notch

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

View PostHammertrial, on 15 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:


Yes? Because in TT you had plenty of modifiers to improve/decrease your chances of an actual hit. Moving? That's a decrease. Enemy moving? That's a decrease. Running at 90% heat? You bet that's a decrease.

Here. While charging at 80 kph and 99% heat, SCREW YOU IM FIRING ALL MY LASERS PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW and having them hit exactly where you're pointing.

Cool so why bother with any of this convergence chance and just institute die rolls to hit and for locations and all issues solved? I mean if we're going to be faithful to the TT how else can we do it?

#93 Prezimonto

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:14 AM

Also that thread is referencing a very specific model with an actual turret looking mount on it's chin.

Back to topic folks....
It is good for the game for any mech to be able to be one shot at long range. The rest is incidental about how to fix these issues and there are better, more constructive, more well thought out threads for that.

#94 zraven7

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:27 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:


Was not changing the topic, was challenging your sanity and why I should take any argument you make seriously. Everything you do on these boards has a bearing on how seriously someone takes you in other threads. That is why it's relevant. It has nothing to do with base capping itself.

And that post doesn't really point me to anything concrete, other than to say one persons view on it. While he has more clout than you, it really doesn't answer my question.

This concept of all torso weapons being able to move and set convergence within tiny increments of time to fire with pinpoint accuracy does not make sense.

My sanity? Nice. Differing opinion a belief makes me insane now. Good to know.

I'm looking through source material on a product that has changed hands multiple times and been sued by multiple parties, and that primarily existed before everything was plastered online. If you can find concrete evidence that torso-mounted weapons did not have dynamic convergence, please, post it.

There is the other point that we are talking about a video game based on a pen-and-paper RPG. In any of these, the understood golden rule was that, in the event of a rules discrepancy of any sort, final say went to the GM. Currently, guess who the GM is?

There are 3 possibilities. The first is that torso mounted weapons had some kind of actuators, and therefore, dynamic convergence. This is the most likely, considering the thousand-some-odd years of technological advancement they have over us currently, and the inherent lack of practicality innate in a weapon mounted 2 to 3 stories above the ground that can only fire directly forward.

The second is that they were, in fact, hard-mounted in a fixed position, and that the GM (PGI) made a judgement call, using said golden rule, and decided upon dynamic convergence of torso mounted weapons.

The third possibility is that they were not able to find sufficient information to point to either conclusion, and went with the logical answer, dynamic convergence of torso mounted weapons.

I am frankly uninspired to search for further evidence, since you'll just discount anything you deem unworthy.

Point stands, and my contribution to this thread is, there is nothing wrong with a larger mech being able to one-shot a light mech.

#95 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:36 AM

View Postzraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

This is the most likely, considering the thousand-some-odd years of technological advancement they have over us currently.


God that crap again.

Why do so many people go back to that arguement.

Do you understand where we are in the Battletech timeline?

These mechs are supposed to be terribad, hunks of junk.

It's already annoying enough that we can customize them like omni mechs, which is funny, because that is causing all of the current major issues in this game.

The targeting computers during this time line SUCK. Which is confirmable is quite a few places.

Even if everything could move dynamically, they would not converge immediately, it would take time.

If that's really where you want to go, that's fine. Make convergence take 2 seconds.

So if you move your reticle, it takes 2 seconds for the weapons to converge again.

I can do this all day, in the end, the game isn't functioning properly.

#96 zraven7

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:44 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:


God that crap again.

Why do so many people go back to that arguement.

Do you understand where we are in the Battletech timeline?

These mechs are supposed to be terribad, hunks of junk.

It's already annoying enough that we can customize them like omni mechs, which is funny, because that is causing all of the current major issues in this game.

The targeting computers during this time line SUCK. Which is confirmable is quite a few places.

Even if everything could move dynamically, they would not converge immediately, it would take time.

If that's really where you want to go, that's fine. Make convergence take 2 seconds.

So if you move your reticle, it takes 2 seconds for the weapons to converge again.

I can do this all day, in the end, the game isn't functioning properly.

I'm done stepping on this thread. You have a grudge with me from a previous post, and it's bleeding over to this one. I'm not going to turn his thread into an argument between you and me fueled by something not related to this.

Sorry, Prezimonto.

#97 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postzraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

I'm done stepping on this thread. You have a grudge with me from a previous post, and it's bleeding over to this one. I'm not going to turn his thread into an argument between you and me fueled by something not related to this.

Sorry, Prezimonto.


The quoted post where you seem to think I have a grudge is the same post I've made EVERY time someone uses that arguement. You aren't special bud.

But please, do stop posting. I'm ok with that.

#98 Hammertrial

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:08 PM

View Postzraven7, on 15 May 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

My sanity? Nice. Differing opinion a belief makes me insane now. Good to know.

I'm looking through source material on a product that has changed hands multiple times and been sued by multiple parties, and that primarily existed before everything was plastered online. If you can find concrete evidence that torso-mounted weapons did not have dynamic convergence, please, post it.

There is the other point that we are talking about a video game based on a pen-and-paper RPG. In any of these, the understood golden rule was that, in the event of a rules discrepancy of any sort, final say went to the GM. Currently, guess who the GM is?

There are 3 possibilities. The first is that torso mounted weapons had some kind of actuators, and therefore, dynamic convergence. This is the most likely, considering the thousand-some-odd years of technological advancement they have over us currently, and the inherent lack of practicality innate in a weapon mounted 2 to 3 stories above the ground that can only fire directly forward.

The second is that they were, in fact, hard-mounted in a fixed position, and that the GM (PGI) made a judgement call, using said golden rule, and decided upon dynamic convergence of torso mounted weapons.

The third possibility is that they were not able to find sufficient information to point to either conclusion, and went with the logical answer, dynamic convergence of torso mounted weapons.

I am frankly uninspired to search for further evidence, since you'll just discount anything you deem unworthy.

Point stands, and my contribution to this thread is, there is nothing wrong with a larger mech being able to one-shot a light mech.


The biggest indicator that there are actuators at least to me is the fact that torso mounted weapons can clearly shoot infantry and other anti-mech units. That would be kinda hard if it didn't unless mechs comically bent downward to shoot a lone dude with a RPG.

But back on topic, I've been giving this a lot of thought about how to fix the heat issues. Certain people say go back to the heat cap, but that won't work because even 3 PPCs will knock you over instantly, and there were plenty of heat efficient Awesomes in TT.

My suggestion would be to have heat dissipate some amount a second, and all heat is applied instantly. However, it takes one second for the mech to power down or begin taking damage from an override, to give builds that should be able to bleed it off time to do so.

This way, a hypothetical 20 DHS awesome with 3 PPCs will go to currently to 33 heat upon firing, which would normally shut it down, but with 3.4 dissipation a second (at current .1 for singles, .2 for engine and .14 for outside doubles, and I'm pretty sure those numbers are correct), would drop to 29.6 before the shutdown.

Though with ambient temperatures and movement based heat, I would really up the heat dissipation to somewhere around double current values, so that in three seconds the awesome nearly bleeds off all the excess heat (20.4) before he can fire again.


With current heat values and the hypothetical heat dissipation, a 6 ER PPC stalker would go to 66 heat, with 18 doubles bleed off 6.24 heat in the second, is still at double heat cap, shuts down (I would prefer explode violently with NOOOOOBBBB blaring sounds), and takes another 5 seconds to go below heat cap and return to battle.


With the 6 laser Jenner, goes to 24 heat on firing, bleeds off 4 a second, and in the three second cooldown reduces his heat levels by half.

Hmm...then the second shot causes it to overheat (12 + 24 = 36 - 4 = 32).

Reducing medium laser heat back to 3 goes to 18, which allows the 6 laser Jenner to be pretty heat efficient but not perfectly.

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 12:15 PM.


#99 PanzerMagier

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostPrezimonto, on 14 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

... in my spider 5k with full armor(I have to play this POS fail boat to unlock basics). PPC boats every time. Either legged in one shot(with full armor) and followed up with a torso salvo, or in one case front side torso(in one shot with full armor). I don't see how a light can be expected to not run an XL. I also don't see how this game is fun or fair if you can one shot any mech to anywhere but the face.

FIX THIS. As a founder I'm not going to go away quickly, but this WILL drive away new players quickly. It just shouldn't happen. There's MANY ways to fix this without random spread(convergence, range lock on times, heat managment, energy systems, ect...), please implement a few soon before this game dies.

Wait wait wait... You're playing a spider. Let's stop RIGHT THERE. Spiders (and other light mechs) are in fact frequently one shotted in CANON Battletech.
*laughs*

Try something that actually takes some balls to drive. Spider pilots don't have balls, they have weak excuses and half watered to reasons to why they should receive credit. Your max DAMAGE in a spider is about 500 in a match. You know this, stop playing a useless mech then. There is no recon meta so there is no reason for you to play your crappy spider mech. Don't look at me, PGI decided it was a good idea to release a useless mech. Go raise your fist in anger at them. In the meantime I'll go grab some popcorn.

You totally deserve to get one shotted over and over and over... Yes you, spider pilot.

#100 Vodrin Thales

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:55 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 14 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

It's not just spiders. We all know it isn't. I almost never get to engage the enemies without a whole section of armor red or wiped out, even in my Atlas. It's not because I'm terribad. It's because PPCs have unlimited ammo, jump-jets and huge range eliminate consequences of over-heat, gauss ammo/ton is too high, and these weapons are all basically effective inside brawling range, as well as at extreme range.

Don't tell me the 90m minimum range on PPCs is crippling, because we all know getting to 90m, or even 270m, against a PPC sniper means you're going to lose much of your armor while doing little or no damage to him.

Again, PPC damage should drop inside 180m to zero damage inside 90m; and its heat should be raised (slightly.) The ERPPC should have a significant heat increase and its damage drop-off should put it at zero damage by 1200m (just outside LRM range.) Over-heating should blow up one of your heat-sinks. Falling while shut down (as in, jump-jet over-heating) should be a crippling mistake that severely damages your legs.

These are not unreasonable nerfs to pop-tart snipers. They would force them into a dedicated sniper role, separating the effective snipers from the noobs who do it because it's currently the easiest way to play the game.


I really think you are making the nerfs a bit too complicated. Add 2 heat back to PPC/ERPPC and most of the current poptarts would go away. Also gauss ammo/ton is fine (tracks with all other balistics). If it is to be nerfed we should simply increase the cooldown further. I'm also in favor of disabling zoom while jumping. These simple nerfs should get us a good deal closer to balance without overnerfing anything.





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