140 replies to this topic

[Escef]

I voted yes, because I feel that any time an Elite Founder gets one-shotted and comes on the boards to cry, it's a good thing.

[Apoc1138]

the most hilarious thing about this thread is that the same people that a few months ago were saying how rubbish PPC's were because heat, are now the ones saying we need to nerf PPC's because they kill stuff

I said this was going to happen once they sorted out netcode etc. and it has, and it amuses me greatly

[Prezimonto]

And no. I was doing just fine with PPC's pre-buff. Please stay on topic, and stop with the personal attacks.

[RG Notch]

Prezimonto, on 15 May 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

And no. I was doing just fine with PPC's pre-buff. Please stay on topic, and stop with the personal attacks.

Yes, no one ever complains about something that kills them, they always handle it fine, they have a touching concern for others or it's boring or something. No one on the internets could ever possibly have an issue with it personally. IT's the noobs, it's variety.
Not singling you out, just this is always the answer people give when they are arguing something is OP. It's Op but they are fine with it, they need to help those not so fortunate. Or they find the OP thing boring. I am always grateful for their benevolence to the lesser players who might find it troubling or the fact that they could use cheese but want variety. Heroes all I say!

[MustrumRidcully]

Vodrin Thales, on 15 May 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

I really think you are making the nerfs a bit too complicated. Add 2 heat back to PPC/ERPPC and most of the current poptarts would go away.

But who would still want to use PPCs then? If they couldn't be used to build alpha strike sniper builds right now, they would probably be a very rare sight. Like they used to be, one LRM fiasco and one PPC buff ago.

[LordDante]

PanzerMagier, on 15 May 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Wait wait wait... You're playing a spider. Let's stop RIGHT THERE. Spiders (and other light mechs) are in fact frequently one shotted in CANON Battletech.
*laughs*

Try something that actually takes some balls to drive. Spider pilots don't have balls, they have weak excuses and half watered to reasons to why they should receive credit. Your max DAMAGE in a spider is about 500 in a match. You know this, stop playing a useless mech then. There is no recon meta so there is no reason for you to play your crappy spider mech. Don't look at me, PGI decided it was a good idea to release a useless mech. Go raise your fist in anger at them. In the meantime I'll go grab some popcorn.

You totally deserve to get one shotted over and over and over... Yes you, spider pilot.

u never go full ****** ! never

[Kmieciu]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 May 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

But who would still want to use PPCs then? If they couldn't be used to build alpha strike sniper builds right now, they would probably be a very rare sight. Like they used to be, one LRM fiasco and one PPC buff ago.

I hope you are being sarcastic. PPCs are a great mid range weapon - even if you have only one or two of them. Great speed, range and damage to heat ratio. Not to mention the shortest engagement time of all energy weapons.

Lasers are "spray and pray". PPCs are the choice of a true professional :-)

[MustrumRidcully]

Kmieciu, on 16 May 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

I hope you are being sarcastic. PPCs are a great mid range weapon - even if you have only one or two of them. Great speed, range and damage to heat ratio. Not to mention the shortest engagement time of all energy weapons.

Lasers are "spray and pray". PPCs are the choice of a true professional :-)

Not if they raise the heat again. Then you just can't sustain your damage output, and someone that "sprays and prays" will be better (even more os if he is a "professional" and can keep his reticule on his intended target even if the target tries to avoid that.)

[Kmieciu]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 May 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Not if they raise the heat again. Then you just can't sustain your damage output, and someone that "sprays and prays" will be better (even more os if he is a "professional" and can keep his reticule on his intended target even if the target tries to avoid that.)

I'm not sure what had the greatest impact on PPC performance:
1) host state rewind
2) speed increase
3) heat reduction

The heat reduction was only 20%, if remember correctly.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kmieciu, on 16 May 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

I'm not sure what had the greatest impact on PPC performance:
1) host state rewind
2) speed increase
3) heat reduction

The heat reduction was only 20%, if remember correctly.

A bit less, even. It went from 9 to 8, that's about 11 %. ER PPcs went from 13 to 11 heat, that's about 15 %.
(Table Top values were 10 and 15 respectively, but the weapons haven'T been at that level for a very long time.)

HSR might have done the most. You said in another thread you only fear PPCs, AC/20s and Gauss Rifles. Now they can actually hit where you aim, if you know how to lead. Before that, spreadin laser damage (or inflated missile damage) was a better way to kill stuff. Now, without lag shields... Things are different.

But I still don't believe a 9 or 10 point heat PPC would be a good idea. If it works as a nerf, it will simply remove the PPC from your list of feared weapons, because it's too hot atall times. If it doesn't work as a nerf, it shows how much the game has turned into alpha strike online. Neither is a good result, and we should probably find ways to encourage more chain-firing, so that aiming a laser for a full second is not so disadvantages. Lowering heat capacity or server-enforced global weapon cooldowns, or no convergence could all support this.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 May 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Apoc1138]

so mustrum, have you worked out "the math" to account for these changes yet then?
because it was you who advocated massive heat decreases for PPC's "because math" but now you are talking about gameplay changes having had the biggest effect, which is the exact opposite of what you kept arguing a few months ago

[Kmieciu]

PPC are great, but I take AC20 and Gauss if I have the chance.

I run BoomJager a lot. Would I swap 2xAC20 for 4xPPC? Nope. With 2xAC20 i never overheat.

Would I prefer 4xPPC Highlander over the 2xERPPC+Gauss one? Nope.

PPC are still very very hot. If I had the option, I would put 2xGauss Rifle on every assault mech I have. Without the hardpoint system 3xAC20 Atlas would be the best brawler.

People use PPCs because:
1) Poptarts can overheat on every shot and still fall back to cover
2) High travel speed makes them the easiest projectile weapon to use
3) Energy slots are plentiful and you can put 3 of them into one component granting you perfect convergence

Bring back the good ol' SRM6 with 15 points of damage and I drop the PPC in favor of close range brawling.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 May 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Apoc1138, on 16 May 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

so mustrum, have you worked out "the math" to account for these changes yet then?
because it was you who advocated massive heat decreases for PPC's "because math" but now you are talking about gameplay changes having had the biggest effect, which is the exact opposite of what you kept arguing a few months ago

I will freely admit that I underrated the possibilities of snipers and burst damage. My calculations were based on 15 to 30 seconds engagements, but for snipers, it's more 5-10 seconds.
The problem remains that there isn't a real sweet spot for PPCs here - everything you do to make alpha strikes worse will limit sustained firepower even more, making the PPC ultimately useless. That's why I advocate looking at the heat scale (but this isn't all that new, I never agreed with the current scale or dissipation rate.).

But if you want new charts, I posted them already in some other threads. I have yet to make a dedicated thread for them, however. Maybe after the next patch, if that brings changes to missiles again and stuff like that?

This chart is for 4/8/12 second long enagements that yield a high damage output (60 damage in 4 seconds)



As you can see, the PPC is pretty good in the short time frame, beating pretty much all higher and equal range weapon options, but other weapons rival and exceed its efficiency when you try to sustain that firepower for long. If you can find a way to ensure that you don't need to expose yourself for more than 4 seconds for an engagement, the PPC will work great. Given its range, it's also more likely to be able to achieve this then medium lasers or small lasers are - at their range, you can't just shoot and hide and believe your enemy can't follow you.

Oh, and if you wonder about the UAC/5 in Double Shot performing worse than the Ultra AC/5 - The stat calculates a modifier to the effective rate of fire based on the jamming chance and jam duration. It might actually be better to have 3 values presented for it, one without double shot, one with double shot and without jamming, and one with jamming...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 May 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Hammertrial, on 15 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Yes? Because in TT you had plenty of modifiers to improve/decrease your chances of an actual hit. Moving? That's a decrease. Enemy moving? That's a decrease. Running at 90% heat? You bet that's a decrease.

Come to think of it, actually it might be pretty fun to have excessive heat affect the pilot's vision, distorting it slightly. Not enough to truly be a concern in a brawl, but just so that you can't accurately snipe a tiny bunch of pixels a klick away...
Might lessen the issue somewhat and adds another layer of immersion!

Could cause a problem for people with eye conditions, though, and I'm not sure whether it will actually be fun or just annoying for normal players.

Kmieciu, on 16 May 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Poptarts can overheat on every shot and still fall back to cover

Undoubtedly a major advantage compared to conventional shooting. Here's another idea from the Department of Random Suggestions: 'Mechs that overheat in mid-air are unable to land properly, since they have no control over their legs and their gyro is down. They automatically topple upon landing and take a good deal of falling damage to their unprepared legs as inactive actuators have the joints strained beyond factory specs. No muscles = no softening a fall. And the animations for falling down and getting back up again are already done.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 16 May 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[zraven7]

Kyone Akashi, on 16 May 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Come to think of it, actually it might be pretty fun to have excessive heat affect the pilot's vision, distorting it slightly. Not enough to truly be a concern in a brawl, but just so that you can't accurately snipe a tiny bunch of pixels a klick away...
Might lessen the issue somewhat and adds another layer of immersion!

Could cause a problem for people with eye conditions, though, and I'm not sure whether it will actually be fun or just annoying for normal players.

Undoubtedly a major advantage compared to conventional shooting. Here's another idea from the Department of Random Suggestions: 'Mechs that overheat in mid-air are unable to land properly, since they have no control over their legs and their gyro is down. They automatically topple upon landing and take a good deal of falling damage to their unprepared legs as inactive actuators have the joints strained beyond factory specs. No muscles = no softening a fall. And the animations for falling down and getting back up again are already done.

This last part has been suggested before, and we all love the idea. Watching a 'Phract jet into the air, fire off a shot, then unceremoniously land on it's bumpkis would have me laughing hard enough to lose the match and not care.

[Shadowsword8]

Prezimonto, on 14 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

... in my spider 5k with full armor(I have to play this POS fail boat to unlock basics). PPC boats every time. Either legged in one shot(with full armor) and followed up with a torso salvo, or in one case front side torso(in one shot with full armor). I don't see how a light can be expected to not run an XL. I also don't see how this game is fun or fair if you can one shot any mech to anywhere but the face.

Being one shot can happen, that's what the light mech trade of for it's small size and speed. You can't be OS by easy-to-aim weapons like lasers or streak, but you can be by weapons that require some skill (and luck) to connect with something as ellusive as a well-driven light mech.

But if it happens to you 3 times in a row, I might question your piloting skills. Almost half the lights I see are acting like suicidal lemmings, either rushing straight at me, or suddenly stopping and trying to do a sniping duel with their twin ERPPC. It's like they're begging me to free them from their mortal condition. Do you play smart?

[Prezimonto]

Hey here's an idea, how about instead of questioning my skills (real or imaginary) lets actually talk about why I started the topic?

Obviously, it's possible to be one shot. This whole thread questions if it's a good game mechanic. Is it fun?

Aaaand again. I don't mind taking a one shot death... if I have a fair chance to identify a threat. 800m, under cover/jj'ing, 2000m/s travel speed for 50 to 60 damage pinpoint alpha... it's hard to avoid, to even know it's coming if the mech hasn't pinged on your radar. If it's at close enough range that I could make an active choice, then it's my fault. dual AC20's... can't quite kill a full armor spider in one shot.. .and they require that the light pilot be dumb enough to engage and/or the jager/k2 be good enough to close to engagement range (or corner camp on a light route) both viable tactics.

Dual Gauss.... 30damage... I can take one hit and it travel's slower... fine.

Essentially, every AC and laser build... even boats can't achieve what PPC boats currently can, not in one shot at that kind of range.... it's frustrating, and I maintain poor mechanics that it's even allowed to happen.

I appreciate the good conversation going on.

Edited by Prezimonto, 16 May 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Apoc1138]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 May 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I will freely admit that I underrated the possibilities of snipers and burst damage. My calculations were based on 15 to 30 seconds engagements, but for snipers, it's more 5-10 seconds.

if you now admit how drastically wrong your mathwarrior-online was a few months ago, why should we have any reason to think that your mathwarrior-online is correct now?
why can't we just let the devs make these changes to the test system and implement the ones they see fit to implement, instead of making knee jerk changes that "the community" demands?

[MustrumRidcully]

Apoc1138, on 16 May 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

if you now admit how drastically wrong your mathwarrior-online was a few months ago, why should we have any reason to think that your mathwarrior-online is correct now?
why can't we just let the devs make these changes to the test system and implement the ones they see fit to implement, instead of making knee jerk changes that "the community" demands?

By your logic: If the devs have been wrong on balance before, how do you believe they will be better on balance now?

It's like the scientific process. You have a model/theory, it makes predictions, you see if the prediction hold true, and any deviations lead to changes in the model to fit the observations.

You can't avoid making mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them and get better.

And there is of course another side to the whole deal - before the PPC speed change, the PPC heat change, Host-State Rewind, the PPC vs ECM counter and the missile splash damage fiasco/hotfix, the PPC was a rare sight on the battlefield, considered to be underpowered. So you can't say that lowering the heat was absolutely a poor idea. There were a lot of changes going on here.
If all weapons lost serious damage output due to lag shields, than longer, sustained damage would naturally be more important, because everyone's damage output is lower. A 60 damage alpha doesn't mean that much if a 1/3rd of your shots go missing purely because of lag...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 May 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Apoc1138]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

By your logic: If the devs have been wrong on balance before, how do you believe they will be better on balance now?

It's like the scientific process. You have a model/theory, it makes predictions, you see if the prediction hold true, and any deviations lead to changes in the model to fit the observations.

I don't think they were all that wrong on balance previously, yet "the community" including you, demanded changes to that balance, and that is how we are where we are, maybe if we let them just do there thing without feeling like they need to respond to all the QQ on the forums, they would actually do a better job just listening to server data

they are wrong now, because the community demanded it