43 replies to this topic

[Flak Kannon]

Gralzeim, on 15 May 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

The Ilya is only better than the other Cataphracts if you want to run three ballistics alongside three energy weapons, though some may argue the Jagermech can do this almost as well. If you want to run an energy-heavy loadout, the 1X or 3D are superior. If you want SRMs, the 2X is a better bet. If you want four AC5s or some other combination of four ballistics that fit in articulated arms, then the 4X would be the Cataphract to pick. (or you could go with a Jager that might do that job better, but that's opinion/playstyle).

Hero mechs aren't about being 'better' than existing cbill mechs. They're about offering alternative loadout options with a unique skin and a bonus to cbill gain. This doesn't make them better or worse, in general terms. It depends entirely on the loadout you're trying to use. If a hero mech offers a hardpoint layout that suits your desired loadout? Then it seems 'better'. if not, then it seems 'worse'.

My point is, they're just different. Not better or worse, overall. I've seen them all do just as well or just as badly as cbill mechs.

Well said.

I do agree.

In my statement 'better', I failed to clairify what I meant by 'better'.

I intended to describe a mechs value by the damage and killing power it projects. Those two mechs are 'better'

When a person knows how to use the Ultra AutoKannon 5 to its fullest potential, triple UAC5's offer amazing killing/damage potential. I have played all the Cataphracts, and the Ilya is the 'best'. You can add 2 UAC5's and a AutoKannon 5 to a 4x, but at reduced speed, and lacking one Medium Laser, plus side, more UAC5's ammo in the 4x

The optimal Misery build doesn't rely soley on energy weapons. The AC20 or Guass added in there allow it to put damage on target a bit more ( higher DPS ) on the HOT maps. The 6 energy hardpoint Stalkers 'DO' win or do' better' on COLD maps tho, I will concede that.

I do say, don't take my opinion on the matter, test it out and decide yourself.

Edited by Flak Kannon, 15 May 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Flak Kannon, on 15 May 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

This poster is just incorrect with that blanket statement.

The Ilya is better than any other Heavy mech, hero or non hero.

The Misery hero Stalker is better than any other Stalker.

I do not need you to believe me, test it your self. I have.

You will have to do much better than this in order for people to take you seriously. Why don't you begin with elaborating on how Misery (65 degree torso twist, comes with a ballistic hardpoint in a Stalker's most vulnerable location) is better than 3F (85 degree torso twist, symmetrical hardpoints) and then give us some details on how IM is better than, let's say, 3D (which happens to have JJs and trades 1 ballistic hardpoint for an energy one).

[Blacke]

Heavy Metal plays music when you kill people, nuff said, it is ovbiously the best mech on the field.

[John MatriX82]

Xl engines are absolutely pricey.. and PGI won't change this.

The matter with this kind of engines is a) find a good mech to employ them invest in buying one or two and mount/dismount them whenever you need them. Usually a 300xl is a good bet, it can be used on jenners, cicadas, catapults, dragons, cataphracts, trebuchets and cent D.

Catapults, Dragons and lights/cidada should be the mechs you may want XL engines in, if you stick with Assaults or other heavies/mediums you won't need them at all.

Another good XL is the 280 or 295 (raven 3L); the other good ones are those that allow you to place further DHSs in them so 325, 350, 375 eventually (only Cent D, TBT 3C, AWS 9M/PB so its a very narrow-use engine).

Flak Kannon, on 15 May 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

The Ilya is better than any other Heavy mech, hero or non hero.

Hmm maybe no, a CTF 3D is much better in the current meta.

Flak Kannon, on 15 May 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

The Misery hero Stalker is better than any other Stalker.

Elaborate. I usually own every mech variant that's worth, but I really never considered it. To properly employ that ballistic slot you either have to run low-rating engines, being sluggier than other stalkers; if you place a GR in that torso you don't have anything to protect it with (Atlases have their arms) therefore you blow up pretty fast and that 65 degrees of torso twist doesn't even make it a so much superior AC 20 brawler or a sniper either.. a 90 degrees 3F is superior in virtually every aspect and it doesn't cost MCs.

Edited by John MatriX82, 16 May 2013 - 02:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Svalfangr, on 15 May 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Really? 3.4 million for an ENGINE???

The mech im grinding it for didnt even cost half of that.

Now i love this game and all but thats ridiculous.

PGI should either Raise CB income or lower costs of engines because an engine for a mech should NEVER cost more than the mech itself and at the current CB rate thats more than 30 games of farming.

You are paying for a new High Performance engine and a bigger Gyro, The engine since it is High Performance costs twice as much as a Standard engine. Buying an XL engine has always been a heavy cost, and a decision not to be taken lightly. The DVEs really don't have to change the cost as we are buying 2 items crucial to our Mech.

[Appogee]

FWIW, I consistently get more kills and damage when I try my friend's Misery than I do in my own 3F. I also consistently get more kills and damage in my Ilya than I do in my 3D.

So put me in the ''Hero mechs are better'' camp based on my personal experience. Others' mileage may vary.

Incidentally, I have been ripping XLs out of a lot of my Mechs lately and reinstalling Standard engines. Surprisingly it is often the difference between been being killed by losing a torso, vs surviving the match. The longer I survive, the more damage I can do.

Edited by Appogee, 16 May 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[BoPop]

well tbh, the engines are like, everything in this game. particularly those XL's, allow one to fit some purdy badarse weaponry and stuff on a mech (ofcourse you're more vulnerable in that XL)

none the less, in the right hands, on the right mech, an XL 340 engine, or whatever is best for the weapon load-out, is kinda like finding a +8 Long sword with 4d24 prismatic dmg hehe. what i'm trying to say is, those engines, in my opinion, SHOULD be a bit of a grind. just my two cents.

but be careful, bigger isn't always better per-se. if you go out and buy the best one, you might be horribly let down realizing you cant get the weapons and decent amount of ammunition on that thing regardless. so i always like to strip a mech naked, tweak it's armor, then put exactly the weapons/ammo i'd like on him, and 4 DHS, THEN see what engine i have tonnage left for.

btw, faster isn't always better, it can just end up getting you into the fight too fast and you die anyways so, sometimes it's good to be a moderate speed.

all i'm saying is, i don't think the XL's are that ridiculous a price.

[Mechteric]

Many mechs can still get along just fine without an XL engine. Light mechs not so much, but most mediums and above and still be a force to reckon with.

On the other hand, there are only a handful of mechs that can run an XL and not be disadvantaged by their side torso weaknesses. Lights, Cicadas, Cents, Trebs, Cats, Dragons, Phracts, Highlanders, AWS-9Ms in my opinion are the only ones that I would deem "safe" to run XL, where all others have larger side torsos that make them too vulnerable to use XL effectively in most cases.

[Deathlike]

The cost of an XL is worth it ONLY if you survive long enough to make the most out of it.

However, the cost itself is insane, so you must make your choice in advance and plan for it. For a light mech, it is practically worthwhile, so the cost is usually the same, if not double the cost of the light mech itself.

[Neolisk]

The cost of XLs is insane. Imagine you just bought a car for 20K, would you buy a high performance engine for another 20K? I don't think so, as you could have bought a car for 40K, which beats that hands down. As long as MWO's prices are far from real life balance, we'll get people upset. Same goes for weapon prices. I think 600K for a single ER PPC and 800K for LB 10-X AC is just too much.

[Deathlike]

I can already say that the LBX10 isn't worth the c-bills that it was funded by... (needs more buffing anyways).

When I originally custom configured out a Cent-D.. I swear I felt like I built a customized assault mech... except it wasn't one (17m total). The original 380XL engine purchase kinda gives me buyers remorse... as I eventually bought a 370XL engine that worked out better (more tonnage for more power).

[zraven7]

The primary idea here is that that engine basically is the mech. If you look at cars from simply a construction cost perspective, the engine is the single most costly thing in most of them, two. Now, take into account that, lore-wise, an XL engine replaces the normal metal radiation shielding with a specially made crystalline polymer. They are supposed to cost four times as much as the standard variant that simply uses tungsten carbide.

A lot of us, starting out, only had a couple of engines, and swapped them between mechs as needed. It's a good trick for saving money, especially if your getting basics on a mech you likely won't play later.

Edited by zraven7, 16 May 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Troggy]

This is so far from true. Even in real life. Even in cars.

While you would never buy a Ford Fiesta and drop a 100k Porsche engine in it, look at luxury cars. Heck, even mid end stuff. The difference between the V6 and V8 Mustang is nearly double (22k vs 35k), if you start looking at expensive European stuff you can easy add 50 to 100 grand by upgrading the engine. I understand cars are not modular (OMNI), but cars are pretty cheap.

Now consider airplanes. When you buy a Boeing for example, the engines are modular and priced separately. They are a VERY significant cost of the total aircraft. In the case of military fit things like the F35, there are often a number of explored packages depending on the expected use case. Things are more modular here, and very expensive.

Now consider a submarine or aircraft carrier. What % of the cost does the nuclear reactor represent? I don't know (googling seems to come up with a bit less than half), but it's a lot. As I understand it, this is a major problem for nuclear destroyers where all the cost of the ship is in the powerplants.

Mechs also use reactors, but the rest of the chassis is much smaller than an aircraft carrier or destroyer. Think about it.

--
Troggy

Neolisk, on 16 May 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

The cost of XLs is insane. Imagine you just bought a car for 20K, would you buy a high performance engine for another 20K? I don't think so, as you could have bought a car for 40K, which beats that hands down. As long as MWO's prices are far from real life balance, we'll get people upset. Same goes for weapon prices. I think 600K for a single ER PPC and 800K for LB 10-X AC is just too much.

[qki]

Svalfangr, on 15 May 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Really? 3.4 million for an ENGINE???

The mech im grinding it for didnt even cost half of that.

Now i love this game and all but thats ridiculous.

PGI should either Raise CB income or lower costs of engines because an engine for a mech should NEVER cost more than the mech itself and at the current CB rate thats more than 30 games of farming.

look here:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trebuchet

see that on the right there? That's nearly 4.3 million c-bills. That's what a stock TBT-5N costs in MWO.

Now look here:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Timber_Wolf

check the table on the right, and prepare to cry yourself to sleep.

[Tarl Cabot]

And on the Premium time you can see how much more you would have earned if it was active by clicking at the top right tab at the end of a match. That way you can judge how long you want to run with Premium active.

[Gralzeim]

If you're going to use a car/engine analogy, think about it in terms not of the average car owner (low end mech pilot who can't afford upgrades yet), but rather someone who buys a basic car then mods the hell out of it, and likely ends up dumping more than they originally paid for the car into the cost of modifications. While it's not a perfect analogy, it's a bit better than saying "if you bought a car for 20k and paid 20k to upgrade the engine, why not just buy a better car for 40k". It's not that uncommon for the hardcore automotive tweakers to spend more than the original car was worth, in upgrades.

And it's not that uncommon for an experienced and well-established mechwarrior to spend more than he originally paid for the mech to optimize it for his tastes.

Edited by Gralzeim, 16 May 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Pac Man]

Elder Thorn, on 15 May 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

in my opinion they should return maintenance / repair costs, so running an expensive XL engine stays expensive

The way I see it, they kept it in the game, but made it a background cost for the Battalion. Consider that if you drop with 7 other people, you're probably on the same mission, so your costs are going to be a group cost. They lowered the amount we get per win/loss, which sort of reflects the groups cost to run the mission. If you think of it that way, then its easier to justify the removal of repair/rearm

[Pac Man]

Just for some reference sake, lets do a breakdown of an XL Mech purchased.
Trenchbucket TBT-3C has an XL 300, 4 Medium Lasers, 2 LRM 15s, 4 tons of LRM ammo, 2 Case, and Endo, Double Heat, and Artemis. Just these pieces cost:
XL 300- 4,900,000
4 ML - 320,000
LRM 15 - 700,000
LRM Ammo - 240,480
CASE - 200,000
Endo - 500,000
Double Heat - 1,500,000
Artemis - 750,000

Total - 9,110,480
Actual cost of the TBT-3C- 8,503,816
That's 9 million for just the /parts/ that make up that model. According to this, they're just giving away the chassis(plus 600k).

So when you buy a 'mech, you're buying the components that come with it, and the chassis is just a perk. So don't complain when you replace all those components and it costs more than the 'mech. Because it cost more for the parts to begin with.

Also, to poke at the car reference someone made earlier. Imagine if a company put out a modular car, one where you could change whatever you want, except the basic shape. When you buy the car, the chassis is going to be a nearly insignificant portion of the price compare to the rest of the components that make it up. If you upgrade everything, tires, suspension, engine, exhaust, seating, sat nav, glass, lightened body panels, etc. Well, obviously you'll end up paying more than the original price of the car. But consider this, if you could buy all those parts, then whenever you buy a new car, you could just swap over all those fancy parts, wouldn't it be worth it?

Edit: Spelling

Edited by Pac Man, 16 May 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Svalfangr]

Pac Man, on 16 May 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Just for some reference sake, lets do a breakdown of an XL Mech purchased.
Trenchbucket TBT-3C has an XL 300, 4 Medium Lasers, 2 LRM 15s, 4 tons of LRM ammo, 2 Case, and Endo, Double Heat, and Artemis. Just these pieces cost:
XL 300- 4,900,000
4 ML - 320,000
LRM 15 - 700,000
LRM Ammo - 240,480
CASE - 200,000
Endo - 500,000
Double Heat - 1,500,000
Artemis - 750,000

Total - 9,110,480
Actual cost of the TBT-3C- 8,503,816
That's 9 million for just the /parts/ that make up that model. According to this, they're just giving away the chassis(plus 600k).

So when you buy a 'mech, you're buying the components that come with it, and the chassis is just a perk. So don't complain when you replace all those components and it costs more than the 'mech. Because it cost more for the parts to begin with.

Also, to poke at the car reference someone made earlier. Imagine if a company put out a modular car, one where you could change whatever you want, except the basic shape. When you buy the car, the chassis is going to be a nearly insignificant portion of the price compare to the rest of the components that make it up. If you upgrade everything, tires, suspension, engine, exhaust, seating, sat nav, glass, lightened body panels, etc. Well, obviously you'll end up paying more than the original price of the car. But consider this, if you could buy all those parts, then whenever you buy a new car, you could just swap over all those fancy parts, wouldn't it be worth it?

Edit: Spelling

Thats just it though, im not replacing everything. JUST THE ENGINE and its an XL210 NOT EVEN THE BIGGEST ONE.

the engine costs more than double the mech its going into

Edited by Svalfangr, 16 May 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[OrbitalDK]

In the RPG an extra light engine is not just a regular engine with extralight bulky shielding It is a completely re-engineered unit using alloys, ceramics and bulky extralight sheilding. you pay for quality and you pay for tighter tolerances, it is a battle hardened portable fusion reactor your talking about. If it was just a "regular" building reactor would it need so much hardening and redundancy....nope. be a heck of a lot cheaper too.