271 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Halconnen, on 19 May 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

I joined too late to see the R&R system, but doesn´t it promote the usage of energy based weapon systems? I already started to dislike ballistic weapons cause they´re heavy, need ammo and don´t do much more damage compared to energy weapons. With PPC/ERPPC i can even support my LRM/SSRM-carrying teammates. Being forced to buy ammo after every match wouldn´t make the ballistic weapons more appealing.

The fact that there are no heat penalties until you reach 100% heat promotes the use of energy weapons far more than R&R ever could. Introduce that and you have a good balancing mechanic.

[MustrumRidcully]

Hotthedd, on 19 May 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

The fact that there are no heat penalties until you reach 100% heat promotes the use of energy weapons far more than R&R ever could. Introduce that and you have a good balancing mechanic.

LRMs and Auto-Cannons can get quite hot, too. It's not energy weapons that benefit from the high heat capacity, it's particularly alpha-striking.

[Hotthedd]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 May 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

LRMs and Auto-Cannons can get quite hot, too. It's not energy weapons that benefit from the high heat capacity, it's particularly alpha-striking.

I won't disagree with your point on Alpha strike spam benefitting from the broken heat mechanics. That being said, energy weapons run hotter than ballistics and missiles for the damage dealt.

[merz]

........

Edited by merz, 21 May 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Here's what you missed.

By default, the game was set to automatically repair and refill your ammo. Smart people turned this off, and used clever tricks to bypass the system, thus resulting in a welfare state, where PGI paid for 75% of your bullets. And then you got dropped into matches with broken grind mechs that ruined your chances of making money.

I never experienced that Vass, but then again our group was not exploiting that system.

[Hotthedd]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 May 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

LRMs and Auto-Cannons can get quite hot, too. It's not energy weapons that benefit from the high heat capacity, it's particularly alpha-striking.

Quite correct. But energy weapons run hotter than either ballistics or missiles, and more can be used in each Alpha strike due to tonnage.

[TseTse]

I like Re&Re. It made the game more fun for me as it really got my adrenaline pumping with I was running around my XL equiped light. I also think it does help balance the game a bit.

I hope we see some version of it in future builds.

[oldradagast]

I don't see the point to it.

Basically, if you lose, you get punished for it, and if you lose badly enough, you start effectively losing money per match played, meaning you're better off NOT playing the game. I don't see how any system that flat-out discourages play is in any way beneficial to the company trying to produce this game and make some money at it.

The current system works fine as-is. You still get something for playing a match, but you get a lot more if you do well. You never leave match literally having been better off not playing it, which is HUGE if they want new people to pick up this game.

One can argue that R&R is more realistic, but we're currently talking about a game with 8-man teams of almost randomly chosen giant-stompy robots dueling to the death on random worlds that have nicely defined battlefields - realism went out the the window at "8-man teams." since wars aren't fought that way.

i wasn't in the game when R&R was still around, but it sounds like a mess that encouraged all sorts of silly things:

1) Overloading on ammo to get the free 75% refill
2) Leaving your mech a wreck at the start of battle because doing so was cheaper than fixing it (which further blows away any sense of realism.)
3) Builds focused on being cheap to maintain vs. being useful were the most common.

None of the above is realistic, thus ruining the "immersion" justification.

As for this system simply making better mechs more rare, it may do that - for a while - until everyone grinds their way up a longer path, but why is that good for the game? Why should a new player be stuck with a energy-boat light mech for weeks or longer because he can't afford the R&R cost for something he actually wants to play? What use is a system that discourage people from playing the mechs they want?

Finally, this whole system is just "win more."

Assume 2 equal players in a match, but one of them gets stuck on a terrible team. He loses and now has lost money on the match, while the winner makes money. This means the winner is more likely to win the next match, thus winning more money with the loser losing more money. This isn't fun and does nothing to encourage game play, IMHO.

Edited by oldradagast, 24 May 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

R n R still doesn't belong in MWO.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Here's what you missed.

By default, the game was set to automatically repair and refill your ammo. Smart people turned this off, and used clever tricks to bypass the system, thus resulting in a welfare state, where PGI paid for 75% of your bullets. And then you got dropped into matches with broken grind mechs that ruined your chances of making money.

Fun times. Only mech you could effectively grind C-Bill was Commando

[Ninthshadow]

I'm trying to think of what R&R really brought to the table and in hindsight, I am struggling to find the benefit.

I love the feeling that you get rewarded for doing the job effectively. You have to pay more if you decide to swat the fly with a bazooka. It made the rare and (by lore) expensive to maintain equipment feel that way. I have a distaste for XL engines but these days it feels like you're laughed at for not running one, especially in lights. I still get a sense of longing for a time when a standard engine really is considered standard. It did, in a roundabout way encourage playing lights and mediums. Mediums especially I remember being more common back then.

However the workarounds were easy. it punishes those that use ammo (especially those acutally rearming) alot. It made it desirable to acutally be trashed fast, not to put up a fight until you're out of limbs. Some of the repair costs were literally rediculous. All the massive bills I remember seeing were from XL builds yet it did not justify the sort of cost you'd have to play two good games to get back.

The main thing R&R felt good for is still in the game, if you look closely enough. Perhaps it needs to be made more obvious somehow. The salvage bonus (unless I'm very badly mistaken) is a percentage of the destroyed enemies worth.

The more exotic and expensive equipment/chassis the enemy team throws at you the more you get if you win. If you lose running budget mechs the payoff for your enemy is smaller. That was the heart of R&R and it's still there.

Perhaps giving the salvage bonus more value somehow is in order? It'd require shifting the C-bills around from other areas. I do not think a sort of 'repairs' penalty from each match lost would work. The only thing I can see remotely workable in that field is both winning and losing teams get the 'repair' deduction and 'salvage' rewards. It's the only possible change I can think of that wouldn't give rise to the sort of abuse or negative metathinking that the original R&R has attached to it. Even being the one suggesting it I am not sure I like it.

I admit some sort of counter at the end of the game to show who in the match was the high value (as in, literal high C-bill mech) does have its appeal. But that can only give rise to a sense of 'name and shame', especially if that 'repair' deduction was introduced.

In case this was too long I'll sum it up.

What would R&R bring to the table that the salvage bonus doesn't represent? Is there anything a R&R function can bring that changes to the reward system wouldn't?

Edited by Ninthshadow, 24 May 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

IV Amen, on 24 May 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Fun times. Only mech you could effectively grind C-Bill was Commando

I remember going streakmando with only armor rep. 75% ammo was enough.