31 replies to this topic

[TheMightyWashburn]

Lowering their DPS from 3.33 to 2.5

I think it is great, and I run a PPC boat. Discuss!

http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

Edited by TheMightyWashburn, 16 May 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[Zyllos]

Not sure if it is enough.

I personally think PGI needs to increase the heat by 1.0 for both PPC/ERPPC.

But, at least this is one half the change I was looking for in the PPC.

And in the overall grand scheme of things, it's not going to change the meta.

Pin point accuracy is what's pushing that.

[Major HeadRush]

I use 2-4 ERPPCs on a few mechs, and I don't have a problem with this nerf. If anything, it might actually reduce the amount of times I get carried away and shutdown from heat. I really don't think that the heat needs to be increased on PPCs or ERPPCs. I have an idea about fixing the PPC sniper issue though. What if PPCs worked in comparison to ERPPCs similarly to how LLs work in comparison to ERLLs? No minimum range for PPCs, but a max range the same as an LPL. That would turn PPCs into a nice brawling weapon. Boating would be limited by the need for XL engines and low armor in a brawler that is sitting there shutdown from heat. PPCs would no longer be able to be combined at distance with a Gauss, only up close. ERPPCs could be combined with a Gauss at distance, but at a heat penalty for the increased range. Someone can use 4 ERPPCs for sniping, but the heat, while manageable, is definitely an issue that you have to be careful with. To me, this just seems like it could substantially help with the 6 PPC mechs and PPC/Gauss Poptarts.

[MeatForBrains]

TheMightyWashburn, on 16 May 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Lowering their DPS from 3.33 to 2.5

I think it is great, and I run a PPC boat. Discuss!

It won't make a difference at all. Lengthening cycle times only affects brawling not snipering.

[Chavette]

MeatForBrains, on 16 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

It won't make a difference at all. Lengthening cycle times only affects brawling not snipering.

You wrote the whole point yourself, and then managed to miss it. Bravo.

[Edson Drake]

I run some 4X PPCs Stalkers and I am not bothered by this, thank God it's not a heat or damage nerf. There's nothing wrong with PPCs, at all.

[General Taskeen]

Edson Drake, on 16 May 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I run some 4X PPCs Stalkers and I am not bothered by this, thank God it's not a heat or damage nerf. There's nothing wrong with PPCs, at all.

Of course there isn't. Its the fact that heatsinks actually raise the heat threshold that enables some builds that is the culprit. 3-4 PPC's is legit by TT standards. 3 PPC's with SHS raise heat into critical (Example Awesome-8Q), 4 PPC's with DHS raise heat into critical (Example Awesome-9Q). Heat/Heatsinks raising Heat Threshold is the main issue.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 May 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

MeatForBrains, on 16 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

It won't make a difference at all. Lengthening cycle times only affects brawling not snipering.

Which is the main change needed for PPCs specifically. Sniping or high-heat boating builds might need other changes, but the PPC was able to brawl way better than it should. This should go a long way toward fixing that and when missiles get a true balance fix it should bring brawling back the rest of the way.

[Sephlock]

[Tennex]

at 2.5 it still has one of the highest DPS of any energy weapon. On par with the LPL, which is right where it should be.

[Kiiyor]

Perfect. It won't punish moderate boaters severely (2-3 PPC's) and mega boats should be somewhat deterred.

Pop tarts won't be that adversely affected though, as they'll just have to wait a teeny bit longer in between their dainty little bounces.

[Corwin Vickers]

General Taskeen, on 16 May 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Of course there isn't. Its the fact that heatsinks actually raise the heat threshold that enables some builds that is the culprit. 3-4 PPC's is legit by TT standards. 3 PPC's with SHS raise heat into critical (Example Awesome-8Q), 4 PPC's with DHS raise heat into critical (Example Awesome-9Q). Heat/Heatsinks raising Heat Threshold is the main issue.

Except the TT does float heat since firing your weapons does not immediately trigger a shutdown, your heatsink dissipation is first factored in before heat penalties.

Thus, if you have a cap of 30 heat on your scale and at that point you auto shutdown, and you fire 60 heat worth of weapons, but have 31 heat dissipation, at the end of the round you would be at 29 and be perfectly ok, SAME AS IN MWO.

[Sephlock]

Kiiyor, on 16 May 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Perfect. It won't punish moderate boaters severely (2-3 PPC's) and mega boats should be somewhat deterred.

Pop tarts won't be that adversely affected though, as they'll just have to wait a teeny bit longer in between their dainty little bounces.

Uh... isn't there a bit of overlap between the "mega boats" and the poptarters?

I was making a Venn Diagram but them I realized that pretty much all the poptarters are ppc/gauss boats...

Edited by Sephlock, 16 May 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

This will help a bit in brawling but just brings the PPC, the largest energy weapon, somewhat more in line with the largest ballistic weapons which already have a 4 sec cooldown. Double PPCs still have the advantage over an AC20 because they hit much farther out and never run out of ammo.

Poptarts won't be affected much by this nor will PPC stalkers which usually shutdown for more than 4 secs between volleys anyway (though the accompanying announcement that overheating may cause internal dmg might do some good).

PPCs still need to be returned to their previous TT heat level. Then they might start to be balanced.

Edit: Forgot to add that making PPCs and Gauss have the same cooldown time in some ways makes it even easier to play a poptart cataphract or highlander now. All your guns hit the same location at the same time even if you hold down the mouse button like a noob between volleys.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 16 May 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[Sephlock]

No, all other weapons should have been brought up to the level of the PPC! THEN WE AUTOCANNON JAGER PILOTS WOULD FINALLY GET OUR DAKKA WITHOUT HAVING TO USE MACROS!

[Kiiyor]

Sephlock, on 16 May 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Uh... isn't there a bit of overlap between the "mega boats" and the poptarters?

I was making a Venn Diagram but them I realized that pretty much all the poptarters are ppc/gauss boats...

True, but most viable PPC poptarts have 2-3 PPCs + gauss.

I'l talking the 4-6 boat Stalkers and to a lesser extent, Atlas boats.

Edited by Kiiyor, 16 May 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[Ralgas]

Oh, just so it's clear

"Let me clarify, this is not a change to "nerf" boating/high alpha builds/"poptarting". It's a change to put the refire rate of the PPC back in line with the rest of the large energy weapons."

^ from the above quoted thread for the tl:dr crowd

Edited by Ralgas, 16 May 2013 - 11:54 PM.

[Shae Starfyre]

The only thing they need to do to fix all laser style weapons, is remove the cool down limitation on firing, and add a reduced damage effect instead.

Full bar, max stated damage, less then full bar, a proportionate amount of lesser damage.

But, keep the same heat, as it stresses the system the more and more you fire under over-loaded conditions (this is what it would be if you do not let it completely recycle).

What this would do would cause the weapons to be truly skill based. Those who panic will suffer, those who keep there cool will master the techniques.

Those who pop-tart will do less damage for the most part; those who keep their cool, will be in a closer engagement scenario faster, as the enemy creeps up.

It's a win/win situation. And as the enemy creeps up, these limitations will show themselves as the pilot tends to keep the trigger finger down, doing less and less damage, and over-heating faster.

Edited by Aphoticus, 17 May 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[arghmace]

"Let me clarify, this is not a change to "nerf" boating/high alpha builds/"poptarting". It's a change to put the refire rate of the PPC back in line with the rest of the large energy weapons."

Indeed. Slowing recycle time just makes mechs with 1-2 PPC's worse but doesn't hinder mechs with 4-6 PPC's at all.

"To curb boating with high alphas... we are testing a system that induces a heat scale when firing multiples of the same weapon within a specific time frame. The more weapons fired of the same type, the higher the scale climbs."

I hope this doesn't mean that firing 6 small lasers incurs huge penalties. Small weapons are only effective when boated and shouldn't be punished for it in the same degree as boating large weapons. There are millions of lighter mechs whose only reasonable build has 4 medium lasers or something like that. Are they OP? Should they be punished? No. This is a completely different thing than having 4 PPC's. The heat penalty scale should depend on weapon size.

Also what happens when you fire 2 PPC's and 2 ER PPC's at the same time? No heat penalties since those are "different" weapons? Add in Gauss and huge alpha strikes are still dominant with a little bit of more tinkering in the mech lab. I think heat penalties should be applied to alpha. Period. No matter if the weapons are the same or not.

Edited by arghmace, 17 May 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Pinselborste]

so, my awesome will be less effective cause it cant kill people with 2 alpha strikes cause i actually mounted heatsinks instead of more PPCs gets punished while, the stalker with 6 PPCs still will kill people without much effort.

how about reducing heat cap and improving heatsink dissipation so you promote the use of heatsinks instead of mounting more weapons?

Edited by Pinselborste, 17 May 2013 - 07:45 AM.