22 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

LBX as it stands sucks the proverbial phallus. It spreads damage and as such is highly inefficient when you can take other weapons with much greater single armour panel smashing effect. The additional damage you can deal to internals is a nice idea but ultimately does not help make this weapon good at any range - in fact, the further range you get the more this weapon fails to deliver.

Current balancing techniques PGI have used is to tighten the spread of the weapon which helps none of these issues to any large degree and simply makes it closer to the AC10 anyway!

So what is the solutions?

To me it is always about looking at the ROLE of this weapon. Here are my criteria:

1. It is suppose to be a weapon that is good for crit seeking
2. It cannot compete with the AC10 at range
3. It is created like a shotgun for a mech, and as such should be a powerful close range weapon.
4. Without the ability to use solid slug and pellet rounds it needs to be Competitive with the shotgun effect.

So. What do we have? We have a shotgun weapon that needs to be brutal at close range because it does not compete at long range. This way it will be differentiated to the AC10 other other ACs in General.

Here is what I would propose.

1. The damage of each pellet of the LBX10 would DOUBLE in damage from point blank range and would be reduced to its regular damage at its normal range, then drop off as per usual ballistics drop off.
2. Spread should not be tightened too far to allow it to spread damage, but that damage can now be quite nasty at closer ranges.
3. Crit seeking stays the same, but the crit damage will be better within the increased damage range obviously.

Now we have a weapon that can output as much damage as an AC20 when you are in someones face, but you may not hit all the same location. It would become a premier infighting weapon of choice along with the AC20 but they would both have different benefits for their respective weights.

At longer range you can still splash out with the LBX, but it would not be as effective - as it is now.

We now have a weapon with a niche, a role, that does not impinge on other weapons roles. Light enough mediums and even some lights can carry and use to effect with their speed to get in close. But not overpowered.

The exact pellet damage can be tested - double might be too much for instance, but 1.5 damage might be the sweet spot so dont flame me on that number it is just a placeholder.

What say you?

Oh i need flame bait to get replies i forgot.

This will negate all the ***** PPC boaters. Also your mother's nickname was fatlas. Noobs.

[MasterBLB]

Only this 'point blank' range needs to be determined,I think it should be 0-250m.

[Asmudius Heng]

MasterBLB, on 17 May 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Only this 'point blank' range needs to be determined,I think it should be 0-250m.

Yes i was not quite sure on that but you are probably right to have a max damage range before the linear scale down in damage to avoid people face hugging too much.

I would say 0-180 for max damage - whatever that magic nmber is then scaling down to the LBX max effective range ... 540?

[karoushi]

It certainly does need to be checked out.

Either it needs to be buffed or the mechanics need to be examined to see if there is some way to apply the damage better, or something of that sort.

[Sweet Baby Pirate]

this was my crazy idea:

50% chance of firing 10 pellets
25% chance of firing 11 pellets
12.5% chance of firing 12 pellets
6.25% chance of firing 13 pellets
etc.

I like your suggestion better though.

[trollocaustic]

Ballistic overkill as usual.

Because ballisdicks can't accept that they shouldn't do massive damage for free.

[karoushi]

trollocaustic, on 17 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Ballistic overkill as usual.

Because ballisdicks can't accept that they shouldn't do massive damage for free.

Or more like some people just want the weapons to work as intended and not be completely useless forcing people to choose out of an even narrow-er selection of weapons (which some of are also useless, narrowing it even more, get the drift?).

Sometimes it isn't always a whine or a QQ or trolling or raging sometimes people genuinely want things to improve, imagine that?

[Bhael Fire]

I agree that the LB 10-X needs more punch at close range, but I think tightening up the pattern will help with that greatly, especially if the spread pattern starts very tight then expands exponentially.

However, each pellet should never cause more than 1 point of damage, since that's in the spirit of the TT rules.
The LB 10-X was not necessarily meant to "hit harder" as much as just be able to hit more frequently because of its wider shot pattern. This makes it perfect for taking on lights and other fast movers that are harder to hit with other ACs.

I propose that the pattern be sectioned into two parts; an inner circle and an outer circle. The inner circle is tighter than the rest of the pattern, causing more focused damage and spreads out more gradually. The outer core spreads out more quickly. Each core would be comprised of 5 pellets.

So, at point blank range (say 0-90) it causes 10 damage to the area it hits, just like a normal AC10. As range increases, the inner 5 pellets stick close together and the outer pellets start to spread out faster, causing a pattern closer to 4 or 5 pellets to the targeted area with the rest of the pellets fanning out to various location around the target area.

This would allow the weapon to cause more damage to the actual area that was targeted, rather than all 10 pellet being random dispersed all around.

Just my 2 credits.

[Asmudius Heng]

Bhael Fire, on 17 May 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I agree that the LB 10-X needs more punch at close range, but I think tightening up the pattern will help with that greatly, especially if the spread pattern starts very tight then expands exponentially.

However, each pellet should never cause more than 1 point of damage, since that's in the spirit of the TT rules.
The LB 10-X was not necessarily meant to "hit harder" as much as just be able to hit more frequently because of its wider shot pattern. This makes it perfect for taking on lights and other fast movers that are harder to hit with other ACs.

I propose that the pattern be sectioned into two parts; an inner circle and an outer circle. The inner circle is tighter than the rest of the pattern, causing more focused damage and spreads out more gradually. The outer core spreads out more quickly. Each core would be comprised of 5 pellets.

So, at point blank range (say 0-90) it causes 10 damage to the area it hits, just like a normal AC10. As range increases, the inner 5 pellets stick close together and the outer pellets start to spread out faster, causing a pattern closer to 4 or 5 pellets to the targeted area with the rest of the pellets fanning out to various location around the target area.

This would allow the weapon to cause more damage to the actual area that was targeted, rather than all 10 pellet being random dispersed all around.

Just my 2 credits.

Unfortunatly the TT rules make the LBX good due to the random nature of hitting section parts for all weapons so its spread damage was kind of cool for crit seeking. With the much greater capacity for aiming in MWO spread damage is less useful, though i like the concept of the crit seeking stuff they do not - it just doesnt work terribly well.

The more we tighten the cone, the more this becomes like the AC10 as i stated. I love BT and the spirit of BT, but this is a weapon that needs to change to fit into MWO and I think this allows serious differentiation between the AC10 and the LBX version making both viable with different roles.

The only other way i see it working is increasing its recycle time and leaving things as they are so you can pump more rounds into an enemy but i think giving it a clear infighter role is a better idea.

Also ballistics do not do massive damage for free.

Ballistics are heavy to account for lower heat, but they still cause heat. They also take up a lot of crit space.
Ballistics have ammo, a major problem as you need more space to add ammo, you can still run out, and ammo EXPLODES.

What i do like is that ballistics have better range damage drop off to energy, that is a good balance decision between Ballistics and energy weapons.

That being said ... i have no issues with the other ballistics, the LBX is a clear outlier for use though as people know its spread damage for little ammo is terrible. And the increased range of ballistics going out 3x the effective range is not good for somehting that spreads even further at range - people siply do not fire LBX beyind a certain range and its effeciveness at close range is still shocking.

All weapons need a role, a niche, and the LBX lacks one in the transition from TT to MWO. Also not being able to fire solid slugs is a major reason for that. That is why a reworking is required.

The other idea that will not happen i think is that it fire a slug that is a proximity sensor and explodes when it gets near a mech. This would allow better damage at range and possible eairburts effects. However that is a mojor reworking of the code where mine uses ideas they already implement.

[trollocaustic]

Quote

Or more like some people just want the weapons to work as intended and not be completely useless forcing people to choose out of an even narrow-er selection of weapons (which some of are also useless, narrowing it even more, get the drift?).

*Cough* Pulse Lasers *Cough*

[Bhael Fire]

Asmudius Heng, on 17 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

All weapons need a role, a niche, and the LBX lacks one in the transition from TT to MWO. Also not being able to fire solid slugs is a major reason for that. That is why a reworking is required.

I think the LBX's role is perfectly clear; it's anti-light mech weapon — pretty much like how flak canons were used to take down fast-moving aircraft.

It's not necessarily meant to be a brawling/in-fighting weapon. It just needs a tighter pattern so it can be useful past 90 meters.

[karoushi]

trollocaustic, on 17 May 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

*Cough* Pulse Lasers *Cough*

Yeah, pretty much how I see it: As of now the only real weapon selection we have are Regular Lasers (no pulse and maybe not even small), Autocannons, and the PPC all the other weapons have some severe infringing detriment that make them pointless to choose because they simply can't achieve what the other weapons can achieve in the same amount of time due to not functioning correctly (or as intended).

[Neolisk]

Asmudius Heng, on 16 May 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

So what is the solutions?

What about this instead... Triple the damage to internal structure (from 2x to 3x), and improve spread to allow 100% of pellets hit a stationary Atlas at weapon's recommended range, i.e. 540m (assuming perfect aiming)? Then make spread change linear with the distance. So at 270m you get 2x better spread, and at some 100m you are almost as good as an AC10, but with triple damage to internal structure, which may prove to be devastating against assaults, and even lights.

[BladeSplint]

The problem is that AC20 still does point damage even at close range. Even with equivalent damage, the AC20 would still be better at all ranges.

[Keifomofutu]

Bhael Fire, on 17 May 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I think the LBX's role is perfectly clear; it's anti-light mech weapon — pretty much like how flak canons were used to take down fast-moving aircraft.

It's not necessarily meant to be a brawling/in-fighting weapon. It just needs a tighter pattern so it can be useful past 90 meters.

An ERPPC volley is the best light mech killer in the game right now short of streaks. Spreading 1 damage pellets over every part of a light mech is not an effective way to stop him. Blowing off a leg in one alpha is.

I dunno if I agree with double damage for LB10-X at point blank range but maybe 50% bonus? And whoever said BUT TT QQ. Large Lasers got their damage changed. LB10-X can too.

[Zyllos]

The reason why the LBX, and Machine Gun for that matter, are in terrible shape is due to three reasons:

pin point damage
incorrect translation of internal equipment from CBT
internal structure destruction is too fast

The LBX can not do pin point damage, it is impossible. But other weapons, with further range, can do this. But the LBX is suppose to spread it's damage on the target. And that is because it is trying to hit locations on the mech that have an open armor spot. But players can already do this with aiming with other weapons.

Next, when you actually do land critical hits with the pellets, they only deal 1 damage with most equipment having 10 HP. That just makes it terrible at destroying equipment. All other up-front damage weapons just need to get one critical hit roll and it will destroy an item. But this is an easy fix. Either up the critical damage of the pellets up to 3 or 5 damage or lower the HP of internal equipment down to 1 or 3 HP.

Last, having a critical seeking weapon becomes extremely underwhelming when other weapons can just rip off the section with ease. This is a mixture of problems with pin point accuracy and overall speed of the game. Players can fire weapons pretty quickly and also having most of their shots hit a single location. And internal structure being a fraction (1/2 of maximum armor to be exact), it is removed at a much faster rate than firing weapons at those sections trying to destroy equipment without taking out that section.

[Soy]

*puts on robe and wizard hat*

...gimme a few hours... *grumble*

[Asmudius Heng]

Bhael Fire, on 17 May 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I think the LBX's role is perfectly clear; it's anti-light mech weapon — pretty much like how flak canons were used to take down fast-moving aircraft.

It's not necessarily meant to be a brawling/in-fighting weapon. It just needs a tighter pattern so it can be useful past 90 meters.

As long as there is any spread on the weapons it is inferior to other weapons. Spread damage is not useful damage unless that spread damage is very high.

An AC10 is still a better anti-light weapon than an LBX10.

While it doesnt have to be an infighting weapon - i think with the current mechanics it has to become that because there is no other way to make it useful without making it too much like an AC10, so what is the point of it then. Tighter pattern = less spread damage = closer to an AC10. This is not good differentiated weapon design.

Neolisk, on 17 May 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

[/size]
What about this instead... Triple the damage to internal structure (from 2x to 3x), and improve spread to allow 100% of pellets hit a stationary Atlas at weapon's recommended range, i.e. 540m (assuming perfect aiming)? Then make spread change linear with the distance. So at 270m you get 2x better spread, and at some 100m you are almost as good as an AC10, but with triple damage to internal structure, which may prove to be devastating against assaults, and even lights.

While a change to internals and the entire crit system might need to be looked at, this is outside the scope of this suggestion whcih I am doing because it is EASY to implement in the current game without breaking anything else. Big changes like that have far reaching ramifications and need a seperate thread to be looked at - just trying to keep it withiht the current boundaries so it might ACTUALLY get picked up by the devs and used.

Zyllos, on 17 May 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

snip

Exactly, which is why the LBX need a close range damage boost so its crit seeking abilities are a minor side effect not the guns main focus.

[Soy]

LBX is love.

Edited by Soy, 18 May 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

So you had a single good game with an LBX? Gratz.

Looking at most of those shots an AC10 would have done better making sure all the damage was in the same place not leaking to side torsos and so forth.

After thinking about it a little more the initial 2x damage wouldbe overkill - it is lighter and smaller but a % increase damage that drops off to 540m would still be good - then you could let the spread be a little less tight also.