267 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

cyberFluke, on 22 May 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

However, there isn't near enough difficulty in lining up a shot, especially when you can fire all your PPC/Laser/AC/Gauss at the same time. You're a math man, far more able than myself, run the numbers. Compare the expected average accuracy from BT, then work out the same taking into account MW:O's changes to numbers. It should be pretty clear from the difference between that and the average experienced players' accuracy that the silly accuracy we have atm is causing problems.

Not necessary...have done it allready. Here the comparison of ER-Large-Laser, Large Laser and MLAS based on average accuracy of BT weapons for a elite pilote vs a non moving target:


The TT steps is a typical 2d6 curve, after lot of smoothing and calculations i created that shiny curves. As you see they deal average damage in comparison with the TT weapons, as long as you are in effective range - after that weapons efficency is far better....Hope you see that current MWO weapon handling is suboptimal.

[Jungle Rhino]

The fundamental problem is about doing a lot of damage, instantaneously, in the same place. The side effects of this are:

1. You can unleash all hell then immediately torso twist to spread incoming damage.
2. You can pop-tart or ridge-tart to reduce incoming damage.

It is the same reason the Arcanite Reaper was the best PvP weapon in WoW for about 2 years (haha man I'm showing my age) - not because it did the highest DPS but because it had instantaneous burst damage.


When you are using LRMs you need to hold on target which means not torso twisting/poptarting (unless you have a spotter)
When you use lasers you need to hold on target which means not torso twisting/poptarting
When you are using ACs with a high RoF you need to hold on target which means no torso twisting/poptarting

None of this relates to the heat system whatsoever.

How to fix it?

I think the best answer is a system similar to convergence but actually implemented well. You either need to A. make convergence take a significant amount of time (like 1s) or B. you chuck in some type of crosshair wobble when moving (or JJing) so that long range sniping requires you to be stationary (hence an easy target to return fire). Call it a gyroscope effect - heck you could even add a gyro module to improve firing on the move.

[FunkyFritter]

I like the way the game plays right now. Strategy, tactics and mechanical skill all feel important and have a big impact on every match. Mistakes are swiftly punished and great play gets rewarded. Weapon balance still needs some work, but I feel like the current aiming and convergence setup works quite well.

[Krell Darkmoon]

Kiiyor, on 19 May 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Bollocks. Prove it.




Prove it!




lol, nope. Read the post about hud issues. Read any of the posts about weapon changes. Changing missile damage by .2 caused a riot at one stage.




PROVE IT!

Your irrefutable proof always seems to look like assumptions.

Disprove it!!!!

[Thuzel]

Rhent, on 18 May 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

@Paul
1st) What constitutes boating?
-I'm running Misery w/: 1 Gauss, 2 ERPPCs, 3 ML. I can snipe at long range and when they close I have focused fire at close range.
-I'm running Misery w/: 1 AC 20, 5 ML, 1 SRM6. I can focus fire all but the SRM6 on one narrow target.

In both of those builds above, I can unload an ungodly amount of focused fire, About 50 on a target and sustain it for a few rounds.

2nd) Putting in a sliding heat penalty for firing weapons of the same type probably won't fix the issue.
-The most popular sniper build is: 1 Gauss + 2 ERPPC's. Would the scale apply to 2 PPC's?
-Another popular sniper build is: 2 Gauss. how are you going to scale 1 heat?
-Light mechs running 6 ML, what will happen to them?

3rd) Shut down mechanics are easily avoided.
-I am part of the Native Kuritan Rid Humping Stalker movement. I can get up on a ridge, and unload 3 volleys of 4 PPC's blast and on my 3rd volley I start moving backwards and when I shut down I fall back on the hill and I can't be hit even though I'm shut down. Instead of falling back, as soon as I shut down I should stop dead in my tracks in the open so I can be shot. If Poptarters on overheat had a good chance of falling forward out of cover, that would help fix that mess as well.
-Poptarters will purposely go up on their 3rd volley to Jump, shoot then overheat and fall to safety behind the ridge.
-The damage to the internals is a good idea.

4th) The real issue is CONVERGENCE
-Rethink convergence amongst the weapon positions. I honestly have no clue on how to even suggest implementing this. However, if say someone can get about 40% damage to where they are aiming and the 60 still hits but in in close proximity, that would probably fix a lot of the boating issues AND would increase game time so people don't die as fast.

Extremely well put, and you've nailed it right on the head.

The only thing I'd add is that, in addition to your points, the heat scale we're using now is also broken. Deciding to implement an all-or-nothing system was a horrible design decision. Adding in graded penalties to movement and accuracy before reaching max heat would go a long way to help.

Just my opinion.

[C E Dwyer]

Not sure why damage and fire rate of PPC's needs an adjust, though the only PPC weapon I currently use is the ERPPC, on my k2, this is due to being exclusively in pugs and not wanting a ppc armed mech which loses a major part of its damage output at close range, shrugs it seems ok.

its also not going to penalise alpha strikes, if, if you use multiple types of weapon, only those that use multiple types of the same weapon are going to feel the pain, and thats a good thing, for mechwarrior online and maybe a not so good idea for stompy robots online.

It dosn't stop stalkers boating 6 ppc's if they must, just going to have higher heat issues, which is good, its also going to be a very slight buff for the awsome that currently has no place in the game as a PPC platform all the time stalkers can boat 6 without some kind of penalty, yes its going to effect them also but they can't boat 6,

It simply is the best solution, without making the game overly complex, engine energy output sounds good on paper but its just going to be an extra layer, and instead of an accumalative heat increase is going to just mean woah 3 of my PPC's won't work..when I walk..or the 6 boater would end up with paper thin armour to put so large an engine in it, weight would be an issue, and crys of OMG i hate this nerf you suck, than whats happening now

its a system that still allows the multi boaters, but also bring the game into a more canon and less outrageous builds, a good thing for a game using the battletech franchise, and still keeps the game skill based

[John MatriX82]

I keep saying this here and there.. we need an hardpoint system. Hardpoint restrictions.

Take the 4PPC/5PPC/6PPC stalker. It wouldn't exist.

The energy slots in the arms? You can mount 1 slot weapons in there (so small lasers or medium lasers)
The energy slots in the side torsoes? You can mount 2 slot weapons (so large lasers)

The missiles? Limit them by the number of available tubes. The stalkers (3H besides) have 10 tubes in the arms? Good, you can put a SRM6 or at maxium a LRM10. The side torsoes have 6 tubes, so you can go with SRM6 or LRM5. No refire of multiple salvoes from the same hardpoint. Full stop.

This would address UBER LRM 70-80 boaters, PPC boaters and such. Think of an Awesome that can spot 3 PPCs because the LT/RT and RA arms are allowed to bring 3 slotted energy hardpoints. It would be feared and used but also counterable thanks to the big shape. And every chassis and variant would have its flavor and unique hardpoints, so the devs could differentiate them.

The same can be done for ballistics, so that a catapult K2 would be limited to 5 or 6 slot ballistics hardpoint, so no more Gausspults or Boomcats, you could place LBX 10s or UAC5 at maximum in those hardpoints. It would be a huge work, but this would give dignity to forgotten chassis; this would even help balancing many weapons as well, since virtually no mech variant would be able to bring more than 50 LRMs (STK 3H, HGN 733, Catapult C4 -40 lrms-).

So no more boating for multiple PPCs, absurd numbers of LRMs and TT "boating" variants such as jenners, or HBK 4P would still exist.

EDIT: Let's take the mighty CTPL-A1:


This variant has 15 tubes per arm: you place an LRM15 in there, boom, no more LRMs for you. But you can mix LRMs and SRMs when multiple hardpoints share the same tubes, so you could us a LRM15+SRM6+SRM6 or LRM10+LRM5+SRM6 and so on. No more 3xSRM6, because it would exceed the total number of the available tubes (18 SRMs > 15 tubes).

Or the Cent A:


You can mix LRMs and SRMs, but no more 3XSRM6. You have 10 Tubes, so the best way to employ this would be SRM6+SRM4+LRM10.

And (of course just an idea) way to balance the STK5M hardpoints:


Of course using an MLaser in a dual slot energy crit would free up 1 crit of space in that section.

Heat penalties? They wouldn't be necessary. At all.

Edited by John MatriX82, 26 May 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[l33tworks]

Paul, have you considered that PPCS are just too good in too many ways compared to other weapons and its not the Heat scale?

-Does not run out of AMMO
-Does not need the mech to carry AMMO for it (these are two seperate pros)
-Weighs less than equivalent weapons
-Takes up less slots than equivalent Weapons
-Its ammo takes up less slots than equivalent weapons because it has no ammo (these are two separate pros)
-Does not explode
-Its ammo does not explode (has no ammo to explode, again two separate pros)
-Mechs have more energy slots than ballistic on average
-HAS BLAZING FAST TRAVEL TIME


Changing one of these aspects may be enough to tip the balance

For example, who decided the PPCS projectile speed should be FASTER than a Gauss rife? Gauss is meant to be the superior sniping weapon but PPCs beat it hands down in every regard.

At least make PPCs move slower and ballistic faster so people have a reason to use something else.

One thing we don't need in the game is more heat to deal with and more waiting around behind cover for the heat to drop and more of everything you are trying to solve.

I think PGi does not get the changes the are making are promoting the same problem they are trying to solve. For example ER PPC cool down increase to 4 seconds just promotes camping more and pop tarting instead of running around with the weapon

Also, has anybody considered that changes such as heat scale factors are just narrowing down the number of viable builds?

It may kerb boating, but there will just be new optimized load outs that are affected by heat scale as little as possible that are the next hot thing.

For players all it may mean is having more weapon groups to deal with,

Edited by l33tworks, 26 May 2013 - 05:39 AM.