42 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

It worked for Jeff, might as well try it.

Paul, You being lead game designer (I think) makes this question most appropriate for you.
We have the Official CC Post regarding ECM stating
"Guardian ECM, like all features in the game, is very close to where we want it to be."

"ECM brought a whole new level of strategy and skill to the battlefield and is something that we've been striving to achieve instead of flat plane, long range combat. It brought the need to be aware of your surroundings and assist team mates in a way that previous MechWarrior titles didn't have. Teams will now have to work together to counter the effects of ECM and as of February 15th, the new counters allow for multiple attack vectors against the system.

With the increase of projectile speeds and reduction in hit-detection issues, you will notice that a lot more ballistic/laser shots are on target. There are even more and bigger improvments coming down the pipe very soon in terms of hit-detection. These aspects combined with the actual ECM counters (PPC/Advanced Sensor Range) implemented put ECM VERY close to where we want it to be; a very frightful piece of equipment that is powerful and versitle while at the same time has its weaknesses (3 health and soon to be hardpoint limited, see below)."

(Quoting the whole relevant piece.)
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The question is: What is the actual official logic behind that statement? The reason I ask that is that is that the logic doesn't seem sound (at least to me), at least in its current stated form, and I think myself and many others would like to know a little more in depth as to the why behind the why.

---Let's start with the biggie:
"...instead of flat plane, long range combat."

Arguably, that hasn't gone away; Gauss and PPC, especially ERPPCs are premier long range combat, and the definition of "flat plane."
(Missiles are support weapons in that they could support without necessarily having direct LoS, but requiring team work to do so.)

---Next:
"...a whole new level of strategy and skill to the battlefield"

Arguably half-true.
It did bring the necessity for focused teamwork to work against it.. but bringing and using ECM requires no skill and no teamwork, it is a passive protection/disruption and it has no drawback.

--Next: (Edited in one other)
"...its weaknesses (3 health and soon to be hardpoint limited, see below)."
It's weaker, but not a weakness. The low-health exploding Gauss rifle is a weakness, that's an actual risk. Losing ECM just makes you a regular mech 1.5 tons lighter, the same weakness as every other component on a mech.

---Last:
"With the increase of projectile speeds and reduction in hit-detection issues, you will notice that a lot more ballistic/laser shots are on target."

Undeniably true. (And GREAT job on HSR, game-changer of the year in my book.)
However, LRMs are still crippled, even moreso now where the engagement ranges have increased at least by double. TAG as a counter is no longer viable, PPCs were never a long range counter. (4 seconds isn't enough to get LRMs locked, and to a target more than 200 meters away, let alone farther- Currently it takes LRMS 10 seconds to get to a max range target after firing, coming down to about 8 seconds after patch: still an eternity compared to PPCs and Gauss) The new Changes to BAP will help Streak SRMs, but it still does very little for LRMs.

The protection from sensors/lock has all but eliminated LRMs, the only true support weapon, from the battlefield.
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I'm not going to propose solutions, that's not what this is about:

I'd like to know the actual logic. (And I don't think I'm alone.)

Why, Paul, why?

-Live

Edited by Livewyr, 18 May 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[WolvesX]

I want to understand that too!

[Syllogy]

ECM is meant to be a long-range scouting feature and a missile deterrent.

It's current implementation is being used (incorrectly) as a brawling mechanism.

LRM's are getting their buff on Tuesday. TAG has always been viable, and will remain viable. PPCs aren't enough to get a lock, but they do reveal the enemy's location to the entire team.

Remember, if you have LoS for PPCs, you have LoS for TAG.

Edited by Syllogy, 18 May 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[Livewyr]

Syllogy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

ECM is meant to be a long-range scouting feature and a missile deterrent.

It's current implementation is being used (incorrectly) as a brawling mechanism.

LRM's are getting their buff on Tuesday. TAG has always been viable, and will remain viable. PPCs aren't enough to get a lock, but they do reveal the enemy's location to the entire team.

Remember, if you have LoS for PPCs, you have LoS for TAG.

TAG maxes out at 750 meters... I'm already getting hit at 1200...and getting fullblasted by ERs at 810..

TAG is no longer viable.

[Wispsy]

Have you not taken a full LRM team (with spotters) into 8mans this patch! 100% winrate with it so far for me! You can still core mechs surprisingly quickly with enough of them and whilst getting them to hit some targets can require spreading out and co-ordination when they increase the speed it should be totally fine and easy again.

[Syllogy]

Livewyr, on 18 May 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

TAG maxes out at 750 meters... I'm already getting hit at 1200...and getting fullblasted by ERs at 810..

TAG is no longer viable.

Use cover; get closer, flank.

[Livewyr]

Wispsy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Have you not taken a full LRM team (with spotters) into 8mans this patch! 100% winrate with it so far for me! You can still core mechs surprisingly quickly with enough of them and whilst getting them to hit some targets can require spreading out and co-ordination when they increase the speed it should be totally fine and easy again.

Wispy, I'm already going to get enough of that, legitimately, from the undesirables.. I don't need it from intelligent players too.

3/10.

[Wispsy]

Livewyr, on 18 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Wispy, I'm already going to get enough of that, legitimately, from the undesirables.. I don't need it from intelligent players too.

3/10.

I was being honest...have yet to lose when we set up our full LRM team.

[Livewyr]

Syllogy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Use cover; get closer, flank.

Why yes, I can get within 750 meters, train my laser on them, and fire, hoping to god none of them see me. (Incidentally, I think you should get yourself close enough and train a TAG laser on a mech for 8-10 seconds in the current range game.. let me know how that goes for you.

Please count how many times you get erased by PPCs and Gauss before the missiles get there (or your allies missiles are even in the air.)

Wispsy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I was being honest...have yet to lose when we set up our full LRM team.

LOL. Duh.
Now let us eat cake.

[Ralgas]

Livewyr, on 18 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Wispy, I'm already going to get enough of that, legitimately, from the undesirables.. I don't need it from intelligent players too.

3/10.

I wont say it'll work vs a full team of poptarts, but he's not wrong. Of course teamwork (as suggested) has always been op

[Cferre]

Wispsy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I was being honest...have yet to lose when we set up our full LRM team.

So you've only fought puggers so far huh.

Edited by Cferre, 18 May 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[80Bit]

With the BAP changes that are going in, is this really still worth talking about?

Seriously, why don't you just do a huge write up of how the Titantic sinking could have been avoided. That would be just as relevant

Edited by 80Bit, 18 May 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Livewyr]

80Bit, on 18 May 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

With the BAP changes that are going in, is this really still worth talking about?

Seriously, why don't you just do a huge write up of how the Titantic sinking could have been avoided. That would be just as relevant

If you actually read the OP.. you'd understand. Yes, it is still worth talking about.

(And actually.. unlike the Titanic sinking.. this is still relevant because it can still be changed.)

[Wispsy]

Cferre, on 18 May 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

So you've only fought puggers so far huh.

Well no but I doubt it was their A-team FULL COMPETITIVE SETUP teams? At least I hope not?

[hammerreborn]

Wispsy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I was being honest...have yet to lose when we set up our full LRM team.

Same here. We have a 4 man LRM team thats nearly undefeated as well. Stalker boat, Jagerboat, and two Catas (one with 2 LRM 20s, PPC, and TAG, the other 2 LRM 15s, PPC and TAG).

It's a slaughter because LOL CT HITS FOR EVERYONE!

Edited by hammerreborn, 18 May 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[80Bit]

Livewyr, on 18 May 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

If you actually read the OP.. you'd understand. Yes, it is still worth talking about.

(And actually.. unlike the Titanic sinking.. this is still relevant because it can still be changed.)

I did read the OP.

You are trying to pick apart an official, and also old, statement about ECM.

You try to point out logical flaws, using statements like "but bringing and using ECM requires no skill and no teamwork", when teamwork is absolutely required (the kind of teamwork where they team stays together, the most rare and precious kind of MWO).


What I see here is one part masked rant at the current PPC meta, and one part desecration of the dead horse that is the ECM "issue". The last bastion of ECM dominance was in light on light fighting, and with the coming BAP change it will not longer be required there either.

[Chemie]

I do not get the whole ECM thing. They were never OP. It was lack of HSR that made lights un-hitable but everyone said it was ECM. They put in HSR, and super-nerfed 3L legs and honestly ECM has not been an issue since. Yes, they are a pain for LRM but LRM are useless right now regardless of ECM.

How they are doing BAP will not solve the issue if there is one. That just gives other lights an option if they want to run streaks but it will not help LRMs at all. Just TAG for your self.

[Tarl Cabot]

(chuckles)

It is sorta of funny though. Take Everquest monks and their feign death ability. When it was added to the game after going live FD was meant to allow monks to drop hate during combat. They were 2nd behind rogues on DPS, who got evade, was supposed to help the enemy to forget them. FD was never not conceived to be a pulling tool.

Now to ECM. PGI delayed the raven and ECM due to being testers deeming it OP during testing. I would really hate to see what was changed. Possibly all mechs could have been able to carry it? (shudders)

We should though consider the coding nightmares though. Currently we have full C3 without the need for C3 Master and Slaves but that is ok, MWO should not be an visual copy of BT game. There should also be definite checks and balances.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 May 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Coolant]

Syllogy, on 18 May 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

It's current implementation is being used (incorrectly) as a brawling mechanism.

^This...

[General Taskeen]

Information Warfare is denial or hiding "mech info and loadout," not "weapon denial" or target lock-out as ECM is now.

ECM is completely backwards in its implementation, with countless tools you "need" to equip in order to counter it. Say, for instance an entire team has ECM, yours has none and maybe some LRM support, but none of these: PPC, BAP, TAG, More ECM. It is completely illogical and not in the spirit of Battle Tech to equip things just to shut off things.

ECM - BAP - TAG - NARC - C3 already had a perfectly fine 'paper-rock-scissor' implementation in Battle Tech.

Tarl Cabot, on 18 May 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

We should though consider the coding nightmares though. Currently we have full C3 without the need for C3 Master and Slaves but that is ok, MWO should not be an visual copy of BT game. There should also be definite checks and balances.

There are ways to implement C3 to be useful, and not detrimental if your Mech does not have it. MW:LL, best example. Also better ECM balance in that game. Actual mounted C3 probably won't be in this game until they implement Active/Passive radar, which they said will be worked on after official "launch."

Edited by General Taskeen, 18 May 2013 - 10:29 AM.