238 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Quote

You like killing things Roland, that's fine, you like killing stuff as fast as possible in your "optimized" mech that does 60+ to a single location it hits because it's running 6 ppc's...

Do you realize that 6 PPC's isn't actually a good build?
I ask this because so many people cite it as though it were some monster, when in reality it's terrible.

Quote

These are big machines slugging it out, the fights are not supposed to be over as fast as a COD match. You're supposed to have to work for it. instead of point, click, win.

Taking a terrible mech doesn't affect the overall balance of the game.
It just means that your mech is worse than your opponents'.

I think you are confusing two separate points here.

You could argue that aspects of MWO should change, to modify the overall feel of combat. However, this is separate from suggesting that folks should intentionally bring substandard builds.

I mean, if you want to, you can do that.. but you're a fool if you expect others to do the same. And you're an even bigger fool if you actually complain when other folks use stronger builds.

[Chavette]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 May 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I don't know where this thread has moved to now, but I'll just respond to the topic... jump jet shake works. Its pretty much proven to work because MWLL did it and was much better off for it. You'll see.... you'll all see! Mwahahahahahaha!

I have little idea how it looks like in LL, as the few times I played it I rarely got enuff cbills to get anything above 50t

Roland, on 21 May 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Do you realize that 6 PPC's isn't actually a good build?
I ask this because so many people cite it as though it were some monster, when in reality it's terrible.

Yeah, its like a german rail cannon that in a proper match usually gets 2-3 shots off before it gets focused on. There are some better pilots running 2ER 2Regular though.

Edited by Chavette, 21 May 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Jade Kitsune, on 21 May 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

You can shoot, but it should be HORRIBLY in-accurate. you should have to fight to pull off that hit. Frankly jumping should actively move your cursor around while you try to aim, so you have to fight the reticle to actually hit what you're aiming at.




Actually people have been complaining about this since Mechwarrior 4, and many of us moved to MWO because we were informed that poptarting would NOT be an issue in MWO.

What happened is, players who's "precious tactic" of jumpsniping could't don't it. complained that MWO's jumpjets were not working as intended. PGI answered back and made a change to jump-jets. which actively breaks the physics of Cry-engine to allow these mechs to jump as they currently do. [the devs went out of their way several months back to say the change broke how physics worked in MWO... but since it was an issue for many they made the change.]

Almost INSTANTLY after the change was made, we started seeing poptart builds. Mostly in the way of gauss.

The initial change to Jump Jets allowed jumpsniping/poptarting back into Mechwarrior. When TONS of people outcried against it back in MW4 and we were assured it wouldn't be in MWO.

Jump Jets are for moving and getting out of hot situations. They're NOT ment to be a stable sniping platform.

Personally I asked for improved Jumpjets only after the set of changes made where number of jets affected performance.
I didn't like that with 5/5 jets my Jenners had a problem jumping up onto the dropship base on River City, and I didn't like that after hitting the jets I had to wait a second or two to even lift off.
Realistic? Yes. Good gameplay? No.

Jets weren't good for getting any height, and when you consider that there aren't any terrain mobility penalties in MWO, there are only 2 maneuverability bonuses that come with jets: being able to jump up, and being able to turn in midair.
Yes, using jets for height makes poptarting possible, but it also keeps jets from being mostly useless for maneuverability.

I like the shake idea, since it keep the maneuverability aspect of jets, while penalizing long-range fire while in midair, which was never the point of having jumps to begin with.

Edited by One Medic Army, 21 May 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Braggart]

OP.

Use the jumpjets to get your heavy metal into position to snipe, stop assuming that sniping means your mech has to be 30 Meters in the air in order to fire. Think of it as oh look, something I cant claim, and its gonna take to long to go around, time to Jump Jet.

Heavy metal can still snipe just fine. Now they cannot jump snipe as well. Perfectly fine, now go home.

[Av4tar]

I played the trial Highlander. In comparing with the jumsnipers in mw4 the new poptarter in mwo are just pathetic. Dont know why so much ppl are whining about them.

PGI should use their resource to fix the bugs an rebalancing.
PPC get a nerf because ppl whine about them because Ppc effect neutralizes the ecm effect. And before ppl whine about the ecm and before they whine about lrm etc. now the shortsighted JJ nerf..

I bet PGI havent simulate the new changes before they realize them.

I realy miss the DFA in mw4. Thor 2xclan Lbx 20 med laser JJ.

[NinetyProof]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

I changed the summary up a bit as many are taking it as a defensive speech against Poptarts in general, thats not my intent.

The discussion is specific to the heavy metal, there is a reason why its not in "gameplay balance" section.

You don't get to take your ball and go home. The issue is broader then the Heavy Metal and frankly, your $38 has nothing to do with it. Your are not *special* cause you forked over money so get over it.

What is especially lame is the fact that the Highlander is not even the Best POP Tart ... the 732 is, so you REALLY have nothing to complain about cause your HM is going to be just fine in the ROLE it was designed for regardless of what you wanted.

6 year old little girls *want* ponies and unicorns, and some of them pretend the family dog is a pony or a unicorn, and that is fine for a 6 year old ... don't be that 6 year old and complain that your less-then-optimal pop-tart is going to be nerfed because a dog is a dog is a dog whether your a 6 year old pretending it's a pony or a MWO player pretending the HM was designed to be a pop-tart.

[Roland]

Chavette, on 21 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Yeah, its like a german rail cannon that in a proper match usually gets 2-3 shots off before it gets focused on. There are some better pilots running 2ER 2Regular though.

Ya, 4 PPC's is a strong build.

6 PPC's is bad.

[Soy]

I was poptartin in a 3D back in 3049 2012, deal with it noobs.

I'm gonna go oregon trail on your ***** and start pushing new ****, give me a shovel, Ima dig tunnels underneath the maps to the enemy locations and bust out like a ******* Kodiak under that ice in the one MW Mercs scene and then just go all brawl in your ***.

That's some anti poptart **** right there, it's like trufflehunting.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Roland, on 21 May 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Ya, 4 PPC's is a strong build.

6 PPC's is bad.

The principal is the same, you're simply loosing 20 points of damage per alpha for better DPS. the argument isn't "what's better 4ppc's or 6?" It's burst vs DPS. the point of the matter is, you're putting out way more damage to single locations than is intended with either build. [and your attempt to say that is the issue shows you don't understand the issue]

That being said, Combining this exploitation of the system's current implementation of jump jets with the removal of convergence time has made for a 100% exploited system that is not true to the intention of the game.

Because you can put 4ppc's on a mech, give it jump jets and have it all hit the same location while jumping, is exploiting a broken, flawed system that was not changed for this. Any player who is currently utilizing this system is exploiting a broken mechanic. Instead of punishing you for exploiting the system, they're attempting to fix the system. Be thankful they're not taking actual action against you for exploits.

[Soy]

It's not exploiting.

Also I thought you quit.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Soy, on 21 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

It's not exploiting.

Also I thought you quit.

It's very much exploiting when it's not the intent of the devlopers to allow such actions.

Also I still have 8 days of premium, am a huge mechwarrior fan despite this, and things are on something of an upswing with MWO.

I'm shocked you're still buttdevistated I tk'ed you.

[TruePoindexter]

Jade Kitsune, on 21 May 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Because you can put 4ppc's on a mech, give it jump jets and have it all hit the same location while jumping, is exploiting a broken, flawed system that was not changed for this. Any player who is currently utilizing this system is exploiting a broken mechanic. Instead of punishing you for exploiting the system, they're attempting to fix the system. Be thankful they're not taking actual action against you for exploits.

How is playing with what the game offers considered exploiting? That's like complaining that throws in fighting games are exploiting. Cheap and annoying perhaps but totally within the bounds of the game.

Now editing your files to only get specific maps - that was exploiting.

[Chavette]

NinetyProof, on 21 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

6 year old little girls *want* ponies and unicorns, and some of them pretend the family dog is a pony or a unicorn, and that is fine for a 6 year old ... don't be that 6 year old and complain that your less-then-optimal pop-tart is going to be nerfed because a dog is a dog is a dog whether your a 6 year old pretending it's a pony or a MWO player pretending the HM was designed to be a pop-tart.

... just come back and we'll talk when its your rationale doing the typing and not your sentiments.

Jade Kitsune, on 21 May 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

The principal is the same, you're simply loosing 20 points of damage per alpha for better DPS. the argument isn't "what's better 4ppc's or 6?" It's burst vs DPS. the point of the matter is, you're putting out way more damage to single locations than is intended with either build. [and your attempt to say that is the issue shows you don't understand the issue]

Its more like stupid build vs non stupid build. There are hunchie builds with 54dmg alphas too. There is a limit at min/max-ing when it turns absurd, like the german 1000ton ratte tank.
I know what you mean by the dps/alpha tradeoff but the 6ppc stalker isn't a very good case to illustrate it, as its simply inferior in 7 combat situations of 10.

Edited by Chavette, 21 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Nebelfeuer]

TT rules:
modiefiers to attack roll
attacker wallked +1
ran +2
jumped+3

If we get a JJ shake, when will we will we see a speedrelated shake?

I mean come on be serious we have seen the introduction of 5 anti ECM mechanics up to now instead of a simple revamp to the ECM mechanic.

How about trying to do it the easy way this time and fix boated pinpoint dmg first and after that see if a JJ adjustment is still needed? Adjusting things one by one normally helps preventing overdoing it and saves a lot of work in the process.

[Appogee]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 May 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I don't know where this thread has moved to now, but I'll just respond to the topic... jump jet shake works. Its pretty much proven to work because MWLL did it and was much better off for it. You'll see....

This this and this.

[Und3rSc0re]

What do you mean the heavy metal cant brawl? HEAVY METAL

[Bishop Steiner]

Und3rSc0re, on 21 May 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

What do you mean the heavy metal cant brawl? HEAVY METAL

or
http://youtu.be/nuWuT5q94Bw
\m/

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 May 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Each mech has its own quirk, trick or unique feature to it somehow.

Wouldn't a simple solution for this Hero mech would be to have it have a reduced JJ effect?

[Blacke]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Put it this way, you have a tesla roadster, ferrari on gas, and nice diesel truck.

You use the tesla almost exclusively. One day you get a mail from the energy department that there will no longer be diesel in your area. Did you commute with the diesel car every day? No. Would you be happy? Probably not.

Oh, and you can't get a refund for the thing either.

That was a terrible and useless analogy.

I think people are way too worried about something that hasn't been implemented yet. I don't think it is going to be a bad as people are afraid of and anyone with some skill will still be able to poptart.

[Blacke]

Chavette, on 21 May 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

... just come back and we'll talk when its your rationale doing the typing and not your sentiments.


Its more like stupid build vs non stupid build. There are hunchie builds with 54dmg alphas too. There is a limit at min/max-ing when it turns absurd, like the german 1000ton ratte tank.
I know what you mean by the dps/alpha tradeoff but the 6ppc stalker isn't a very good case to illustrate it, as its simply inferior in 7 combat situations of 10.

Don't mock the Ratte tank man.