154 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 May 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

ANd I dislike that the Hunchback needs to go faster to be competitive. It shouldn't need to. I am all for removing the engine caps entirely, but I also want the option to not use a high rated engine and still have a viable medium mech.

Maybe it must, maybe there is no other way to make it competitive. Maybe the whole idea of role warfare is fail, and only the extreme ends can survive. But that would sadden me, it wasn't the game I was promised. But of course, not all promises describe possible things...

For mediums to excel.. it has to do one of the two options well:
1) Be fast, but not as fast as a light generally. The offense must be at least on par with most lights. (Trebuchet is that, Cicada is an overweight light, so it's a light for all intents and purposes when comparing, the Cent-D/Trebuchet-3C falls into this category).
2) Be strong, but not as strong as a heavy. The speed must still be faster than most heavies. (Hunchback is literally that, Centurion has "durability", which is kinda heavy-like)

However if it doesn't follow that, it must be a good jack of all trades (have OK weapons and OK speed) or be allowed to shift its design to do point 1 or point 2 successfully. When neither are being fulfilled, the role of a medium is borked.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 May 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 May 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Ok...a Raven and a Treb get into a fight. Regardless of who gets the first shot off. Once the fight is started, who dictates where the fight takes place?

The mech moving 115kph, or the mech moving 150kph?

Stop adding silly requirements or special situational changes.

Just answer the question.

These silly requirements and special situational changes as you so eloquently put it, are rather common. If you are incapable of seeing how a slower mech could engage a faster one you're not going to be of much use in the field. There is such a thing as teamwork, and baiting and stalling have been common tactics since the first team based shooters. Only a fool believes he knows everything, especially when it comes to continually changing battlefield conditions.
As for the answer to your question, the faster mech can choose to disengage at any time, but will be at a severe disadvantage until he does, and will in most cases take enough damage that he likely won't survive the battle unless things go considerably better for his teammates.

[LordBraxton]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Mediums are limited to about 90 kmph. They usually have about 6 weapon systems total, but can only realistically run maybe 5. Their armor is just low enough to where they get nuked by everything. Not a single medium has any remarkable abilities. All except the hunchback are way, way, way, way too big, with the cent being the size of an assault mech.

There was a time when people around here said 'just you wait for the fast mediums!' Well, we got the fastest medium, and nothing changed.

The 35 ton jenner is a way better choice than all the mediums. It's faster, can actually run all six of its lasers (because they're lasers), has jets, a small profile...

this.

end of story.

I hate when people start waving their epeens during the medium mech discussion.

let me wave mine.

I am probably a better medium pilot than easily 80% of the community, I just scored 600 damage in my shitbucket-3c

I easily contribute twice as much to my team in a heavy or assault

mediums need help, REAL HELP, to be viable

they also need the old SRMs back

Edited by LordBraxton, 21 May 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Inflatable Fish]

***** n stuff, on 21 May 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

You mean show me a medium with 2 missile hardpoints, 3 energy hardpoints and ECM? Those don't exist. Now show me any other light that can beat a 3L. Pointing to the single variant that is still blatantly OP doesn't make the other lights better.
There's only one Commando that even stands a chance against a Jenner, 3L or most Cicadas ( not the 3C ) . There are no Spiders that stand a chance against any of those, except against the Cicada 3C. By your logic, we should call all light mechs useless because nearly every other mech will wipe the floor with a spider. Now for a slightly more realistic argument:
The Cicada is tougher than any light mech, and has similar hardpoints to the Jenner. Comparing the Cicada to the most similar light mech the Jenner is smaller, but with good aim that doesn't matter because the Jenner's CT is just as easy to shoot as the Cicada's. The CT on the Cicada is extremely hard to hit when turned away from the enemy, while the CT on the jenner can always be hit either front or back because of it's big nose. Unless you're stupid enough to fight a Jenner on steep slopes where your torso lasers can't hit you should win.
The only advantage Jenners really have here is against snipers and players who can't aim, because they are less likely to get hit by ballistics and won't take as much damage from lasers fired by someone with bad aim. The fact that the Jenner has the option of jump jets doesn't help it much in combat because it's much easier to hit while airborne, and the supposed advantage of using jump jets to change direction suddenly is more or less fictional as any savvy player will know when you're trying to do this and adjust accordingly.

I don't know how you managed to get a single sentence so completely wrong, but you did.

You start going on about light mechs and their plight when compared to each other, then assert "by my logic" that lights are useless... when my point was that lights are far from it, in fact almost all light mech variants can take on *any* single medium/heavy/assault mech out there and win, slopes or not (by the way, you sure seem to love adding additional circumstances to the posited scenario just to prove your point.)

Their mobility is off the charts compared to the twist and turn speeds of heavier weight classes, and they carry comparable firepower to a medium mech (6 ML on a jenner? really....) It doesn't help that a vast majority of medium mechs are designed in such a way that the weapons most useful for fighting lights are torso-mounted. Mediums in general are terribly designed in terms of fighting fast targets. The only ones that stand out are the 4SP with four arm-mounted lasers and the 9AL that unfortunately is very easy to neutralise for a light, what with having only one arm that carries weapons.

Catching up with the topic: Mediums don't need to go faster to stand a chance against lights. Increased mobility and manoeuverability would benefit them greatly and give them a sort of role of light-killers. Buff their twist and turn rate and scale the models down a bit, and it's a good first step forward on the way to make mediums consistently viable.

[Vodrin Thales]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Mediums are limited to about 90 kmph. They usually have about 6 weapon systems total, but can only realistically run maybe 5. Their armor is just low enough to where they get nuked by everything. Not a single medium has any remarkable abilities. All except the hunchback are way, way, way, way too big, with the cent being the size of an assault mech.

There was a time when people around here said 'just you wait for the fast mediums!' Well, we got the fastest medium, and nothing changed.

The 35 ton jenner is a way better choice than all the mediums. It's faster, can actually run all six of its lasers (because they're lasers), has jets, a small profile...

Everything that hits a jenner hits the CT. A CN9-A is a bear to kill if it has a standard engine. So the cent is still the better skirmisher, even with SRM's being a hair underpowered.

Inflatable Fish, on 21 May 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Their mobility is off the charts compared to the twist and turn speeds of heavier weight classes, and they carry comparable firepower to a medium mech (6 ML on a jenner? really....) It doesn't help that a vast majority of medium mechs are designed in such a way that the weapons most useful for fighting lights are torso-mounted. Mediums in general are terribly designed in terms of fighting fast targets. The only ones that stand out are the 4SP with four arm-mounted lasers and the 9AL that unfortunately is very easy to neutralise for a light, what with having only one arm that carries weapons.

How about the TBT-5J with 5 arm mounted lasers or the TBT-7M that can mount an ERPPC to negate ECM (no longer even necessary) and 3 streaks.

[Inflatable Fish]

Vodrin Thales, on 21 May 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Everything that hits a jenner hits the CT. A CN9-A is a bear to kill if it has a standard engine. So the cent is still the better skirmisher, even with SRM's being a hair underpowered.

If you're running an STD engine in a 9A, you're both severely gimping your firepower and moving slower than hunchbacks. Bad decision.

Quote

How about the TBT-5J with 5 arm mounted lasers or the TBT-7M that can mount an ERPPC to negate ECM (no longer even necessary) and 3 streaks.

Good point, I'm not very well versed in TBTs since I've never piloted one. That's still only four mechs out of 16 or 17?... (not counting cicadas, counting BJs as their arms are horizontally immobile and none of the variants can run rockets) - still a bit dismal, wouldn't you say?

Edited by Inflatable Fish, 21 May 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Deathlike]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 May 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

If you're running an STD engine in a 9A, you're both severely gimping your firepower and moving slower than hunchbacks. Bad decision.

Say whaaa?

Cents are notorious zombies. They run a STD engine for this purpose alone. You must be doing something wrong if you are not running a STD engine on a Cent-A. If you were talking about a Cent-D, that's a different matter.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 May 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Inflatable Fish]

Deathlike, on 21 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Say whaaa?

Cents are notorious zombies. They run a STD engine for this purpose alone. You must be doing something wrong if you are not running a STD engine on a Cent-A. If you were talking about a Cent-D, that's a different matter.

I wholeheartedly agree zombie mode is amazing against heavies and other mediums, but we're talking mediums vs lights here. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough about my point.

[MaddMaxx]

Once the lines between weight classes get blurred, as in "overweight Light" or "underweight Heavy" there is little point in arguing the remaining semantics. The weight classes are well defined. Their Battlefield roles should also be well defined.

Light BattleMechs - 20t-35t
Medium BattleMechs - 40t - 55t
Heavy BattleMechs - 60t - 75t
Assault BattleMechs - 80t - 100t

[SMDMadCow]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I wholeheartedly agree zombie mode is amazing against heavies and other mediums, but we're talking mediums vs lights here. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough about my point.

How is zomie mode ineffective versus light mechs? In my own experience, it works fine as long as you can aim.

[Inflatable Fish]

The only torso weapons reliable against light mechs that a centurion has are the two med lasers. And because they're torso mounted, they're much slower to aim than arm-mounted weapons. So a goo light mech pilot will knock your AC arm off, then just circle around you and shoot you to bits because your turn rate is too slow to keep up with them.

[SMDMadCow]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 May 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

The only torso weapons reliable against light mechs that a centurion has are the two med lasers. And because they're torso mounted, they're much slower to aim than arm-mounted weapons. So a goo light mech pilot will knock your AC arm off, then just circle around you and shoot you to bits because your turn rate is too slow to keep up with them.

SRMs work fine too, and I dont carry an AC in my arm so the jokes on them. Like I said, if you can aim then theyre not as much of a problem. What do you consider "zomnie mode" because I think we're talking about different things.

[Riffleman]

Disagreeing with grorious pgi on their vision is past the rine. You want to get the gameplay balance board removed too? You aren't allowed to say that non tonnage balancing is a joke, or that mediums are the jack of no trades, master of crap here. I can already feel the sword of Damocles haging over this board!

[Trauglodyte]

I think the issue with Mediums is really a culmination of things. In TT, Light Mechs depended on their speed to avoid getting hit and it worked due to movement and range modifiers pushing to-hit numbers so high. Heavies and Assaults had an overload of weapons and armor which meant that they were better protected. And Mediums fell in the middle having both speed and weaponry. For the most part, "role" didn't matter.

But in MW:O, "role" still has no bearing but speed of an extreme level and a small profile make up for the lack of armor on Lights. Heavies and Assaults still have a great deal of armor and weaponry. Mediums, on the other hand, are probably bigger than they should be while not having the weaponry and/or the armor. Looking at the numbers, this is what I've seen thus far (excludes the Blackjack):

TT

Mediums averaged 5 weapons per mech and moved at an average speed of 86.4kph
Heavies averaged 6 weapons per mech and moved at an average speed of 70.2kph

1 weapon was traded for a speed increase of +23%

MWO

Mediums average 6 hard points per mech an move at a stock speed of 109.4kph and a max speed of 120.3 (excludes Cent D)
Heavies average 7 hard points per mech and move at a stock speed of 79.8kph and a max speed of 91.6 (excludes 4X)

1 hard point is traded for a speed increase of 37% and 31% respectively.

Problem is, though, that you're not penalized for your target's movement or your movement. So, if you drive a Medium, you're down 1 weapon and lose out on armor (-37% compared to Heavies) but only get rewarded an additional +35% speed which doesn't really matter when you consider that the profiles of Mediums are out of whack compared to their overall mass.

I don't think this really helps the Medium drivers. But, I will continue to say that I think Medium drivers do themselves a big disservice by trying to play heavier then they really are. I have played too many games where that Hunchy or Cent thinks that they can just run off and take out an Assault when it is well within help range of its teammates. Going in with a weapon and mass deficit is bad enough but giving the other side numbers just makes it worse.

[Teatimeted]

Was going to post this yesterday, but I thought I would check out the new patch first, and see if anybody had anything to add following testing.

On topic: The OP makes an excellent point.

Off topic: How do you all feel about the role of mediums as light killers, now that medium pilots have a weapon that can actually hit light mechs reliably? (again). Any thoughts?