324 replies to this topic

[keith]

Wispsy, on 31 May 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

That will affect mass PPC stalkers, mediums and light mechs the most. Poptarters only use 2-3 of a single weapon and the Gauss causes no heat.

If it does not count PPC and ERPPC as one (who knows with PGI small details are often overlooked) then it will basically have no effect on poptarts at all.

u mean because they can only seem to program stuff in linear progression. this leaves out alot of options of how to balance alot of game play. thats how how the 9 med sway going to be screwed over a 3 ppc something.

[Loxx]

Clearly all of you who are claiming Poptarting is an exploit and want it nerfed never served in any military force. You've never heard the saying "All is fair in love and war?" There's a reason for it. ALL Forces will use and will take the best weapons and use the best tactics that are suited to the terrain and the environment that will offer them the best chance for victory. Just because you WANT to fight a battle one way does not mean that it's the best way. Combat isn't about what YOU want, it's about what tools and tactics are available for your given strengths on a given terrain. You may have the best tank force in the world - you'll still get crushed in a forested, mountain environment. You can have the best Light-infantry force in the world - and get completely decimated in a open desert environment. You have to match or adapt your combat power and tactics to the terrain you find yourself fighting in. This FACT is true in real-life or any combat simulator!

Right now, on ALL maps offer multiple hide locations on the outskirts of wide open terrain. it's only natural that forces are going to take long range weapons and mechs that can take advantage of that scenario since it's completely stupid to wade out into the open outside of cover without first suppressing incoming fire. That's tactics-101 stuff right there. The problem is NONE of you want to take the steps necessary to making a full on charge available BY first suppressing the incoming fire.

The two things we ALL should be asking for is.
1) Better map dynamics - IE hills too high to jump over or greater cover across all engagement areas.
2) Better viable enemy suppression / terrain denial options. IE LRMS / ECM / Targeting denial balance.

rather than demanding that viable tactics be removed to dumb down the game to your play level just because you only want brawling. I prefer brawling myself since I'm going blind and can't make out great details at distance, but removing other forms of warfare just to make it easy is stupid and will kill this game in a heartbeat.

Adapt or Die - STOP trying to change the rules to fit your preferred play style!

Oh, one other point. Brawling is a completely viable tactic on the current maps, the problem is NO ONE wants to take the time to set up the tactic to be successful. You all just want to charge in (ala Pickett) as fast as possible and get yourselves killed. That's the biggest problem.

Edited by Loxx, 31 May 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Loxx, on 31 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Adapt or Die - STOP trying to change the rules to fit your preferred play style!

Yeah, yet the poptart's cried foul because they couldn't poptart with the old jump jets, and the devs bent over backwards to make jumpjets BREAK THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!!!! so now we have poptarting again.

Funny how that works huh?

[p00k]

Jade Kitsune, on 02 June 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Yeah, yet the poptart's cried foul because they couldn't poptart with the old jump jets, and the devs bent over backwards to make jumpjets BREAK THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!!!! so now we have poptarting again.

Funny how that works huh?

you could poptart just fine with the old jump jets

oh, you must be thinking of when jumpjets provided next to no lift at all.
1) those aren't the old jump jets
2) those jumpjets were worthless. you could have max JJ and still be unable to even get on top of the short buildings in frozen city. it wasn't changed to allow poptarting, it was changed to allow jumping
3) poptarts didn't cry foul. see (2). when the jumpjets were changed from basically allowing nothing more than a horizontal hover to what they are now, almost no one poptarted. there simply weren't that many jumpjet capable mechs, ppc's were still too hot, and maps were still very brawl-heavy

[keith]

Loxx, on 31 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

The two things we ALL should be asking for is.
1) Better map dynamics - IE hills too high to jump over or greater cover across all engagement areas.
2) Better viable enemy suppression / terrain denial options. IE LRMS / ECM / Targeting denial balance.

this is the important part here. great maps make or break a game. do u think so many would still be playing any of the CS games if the maps were not so well designed? CS like most FPS is just a a shooter, it has a plus and minus, but it has great maps and amazing modality. this game can neither be modded(no ded servers) nor does it have any amazing maps that i would put on a 24/7 server.

[MustrumRidcully]

Loxx, on 31 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Clearly all of you who are claiming Poptarting is an exploit and want it nerfed never served in any military force. You've never heard the saying "All is fair in love and war?" There's a reason for it. ALL Forces will use and will take the best weapons and use the best tactics that are suited to the terrain and the environment that will offer them the best chance for victory. Just because you WANT to fight a battle one way does not mean that it's the best way. Combat isn't about what YOU want, it's about what tools and tactics are available for your given strengths on a given terrain. You may have the best tank force in the world - you'll still get crushed in a forested, mountain environment. You can have the best Light-infantry force in the world - and get completely decimated in a open desert environment. You have to match or adapt your combat power and tactics to the terrain you find yourself fighting in. This FACT is true in real-life or any combat simulator!

Right now, on ALL maps offer multiple hide locations on the outskirts of wide open terrain. it's only natural that forces are going to take long range weapons and mechs that can take advantage of that scenario since it's completely stupid to wade out into the open outside of cover without first suppressing incoming fire. That's tactics-101 stuff right there. The problem is NONE of you want to take the steps necessary to making a full on charge available BY first suppressing the incoming fire.

The two things we ALL should be asking for is.
1) Better map dynamics - IE hills too high to jump over or greater cover across all engagement areas.
2) Better viable enemy suppression / terrain denial options. IE LRMS / ECM / Targeting denial balance.

rather than demanding that viable tactics be removed to dumb down the game to your play level just because you only want brawling. I prefer brawling myself since I'm going blind and can't make out great details at distance, but removing other forms of warfare just to make it easy is stupid and will kill this game in a heartbeat.

Adapt or Die - STOP trying to change the rules to fit your preferred play style!

I suggest just adapt to the poptarts nerf then.

And it would really help if you would not confuse a computer game we play for fun from a real world war people fight for survival. No one cares in the military if it's "fun", what they care for is winning a battle or war.

It's the game designer - PGI's - job, however, to make the game fun. If they just were there to give us effective weapons, they could just make the AC/20 have 1500m range and deal 250 damage per shot and we could rejoice about what effective weapons we can have.
If a particular tactic or weapon lowers the fun for anyone not adopting that tactic, then it needs a nerf (or other tactics need a buff) Computer games get boring if everyone does the same thing.

Quote

Oh, one other point. Brawling is a completely viable tactic on the current maps, the problem is NO ONE wants to take the time to set up the tactic to be successful. You all just want to charge in (ala Pickett) as fast as possible and get yourselves killed. That's the biggest problem.

It's not a viable tactic if it's easier to set up pop-tarting then to set up brawling in the current game.
The more error-prone a tactical appraoch is, the less viable it becomes, because it is a fact of life that we make mistakes. Something like ****-pit shake introduces more error into pop-tarting, and thus it becomes more balanced against someone trying to set up a brawling counter tactic.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 02 June 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[vkornov]

Loxx, on 31 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

---STUFF---

Adapt or Die - STOP trying to change the rules to fit your preferred play style!

Clearly you are taking this game too seriously. Real world is not fun. If I wanted to have a real world warfare simulator I'd join the army.

The problem with computer games is that all the stuff is artificial and can't balance itself out like it does in irl. Game balance is broken and has been broken for last couple months. HGNs added insult to the injury. That ruins fun and people leave this game. Soon it will be the poptarts and you who are left. Adapt all you want.

Edited by vkornov, 03 June 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Loxx, on 31 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Clearly all of you who are claiming Poptarting is an exploit and want it nerfed never served in any military force. You've never heard the saying "All is fair in love and war?" There's a reason for it. ALL Forces will use and will take the best weapons and use the best tactics that are suited to the terrain and the environment that will offer them the best chance for victory. Just because you WANT to fight a battle one way does not mean that it's the best way. Combat isn't about what YOU want, it's about what tools and tactics are available for your given strengths on a given terrain. You may have the best tank force in the world - you'll still get crushed in a forested, mountain environment. You can have the best Light-infantry force in the world - and get completely decimated in a open desert environment. You have to match or adapt your combat power and tactics to the terrain you find yourself fighting in. This FACT is true in real-life or any combat simulator!

Right now, on ALL maps offer multiple hide locations on the outskirts of wide open terrain. it's only natural that forces are going to take long range weapons and mechs that can take advantage of that scenario since it's completely stupid to wade out into the open outside of cover without first suppressing incoming fire. That's tactics-101 stuff right there. The problem is NONE of you want to take the steps necessary to making a full on charge available BY first suppressing the incoming fire.

The two things we ALL should be asking for is.
1) Better map dynamics - IE hills too high to jump over or greater cover across all engagement areas.
2) Better viable enemy suppression / terrain denial options. IE LRMS / ECM / Targeting denial balance.

rather than demanding that viable tactics be removed to dumb down the game to your play level just because you only want brawling. I prefer brawling myself since I'm going blind and can't make out great details at distance, but removing other forms of warfare just to make it easy is stupid and will kill this game in a heartbeat.

Adapt or Die - STOP trying to change the rules to fit your preferred play style!

Oh, one other point. Brawling is a completely viable tactic on the current maps, the problem is NO ONE wants to take the time to set up the tactic to be successful. You all just want to charge in (ala Pickett) as fast as possible and get yourselves killed. That's the biggest problem.

Echo Company
2nd Bat/5thMarDiv
1985-1988

(Just for reference good sir)

Pop tarting does need to have some negatives added. We jump up far to smoothly for a 20 to 100 ton vehicle rocketing skyward. Second Firing "After a Jump" was the most difficult to perform on TT for a reason. hat reason is no translated into MWO properly.

So that kinda puts the lie to your assumption that all Military personal are fine with Pop tarting. I am working on my means to kill Jumping Jacks but even with that said, here needs to be some negs added to the Pop tarts just like there are on TT.

[keith]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 June 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I suggest just adapt to the poptarts nerf then.

And it would really help if you would not confuse a computer game we play for fun from a real world war people fight for survival. No one cares in the military if it's "fun", what they care for is winning a battle or war.

It's the game designer - PGI's - job, however, to make the game fun. If they just were there to give us effective weapons, they could just make the AC/20 have 1500m range and deal 250 damage per shot and we could rejoice about what effective weapons we can have.
If a particular tactic or weapon lowers the fun for anyone not adopting that tactic, then it needs a nerf (or other tactics need a buff) Computer games get boring if everyone does the same thing.


It's not a viable tactic if it's easier to set up pop-tarting then to set up brawling in the current game.
The more error-prone a tactical appraoch is, the less viable it becomes, because it is a fact of life that we make mistakes. Something like ****-pit shake introduces more error into pop-tarting, and thus it becomes more balanced against someone trying to set up a brawling counter tactic.

the problem is they are not being good game designers. 1 of the major close range wep systems is not working, srms. no splash right, well set at 5cm on mechs that 10m tall. many other close range system are sub par. there is no weight balance system to get into drops. so many other options to explore before trying to destroy a play style that ppl enjoy. if ppl enjoy it, then u force them out of the game, they are losing money. sorry pgi is taking the easy way out instead of trying 5 other ways of balancing it.

[SpiralRazor]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

True, but By the physics of the CBT Universe, Jumping and firing do not happen together. So being able to do so in game is... well just wrong. I had fun shooting clay pigeons but if this gets "fixed" then I will mumble less.*shrug*

Uh..no...actually you are incorrect sir. I remember reading many instances of mechs shooting while jumping...It was innaccurate yes, but ive probably read 90% of the Battletech novels and Ive a very firm idea of that. And definitely in the game, if you are shooting and jumping in the same turn, some of those shots are likely when you are in the air since its all abstracted in any case. Thats why there are penalties for shooting while your last move was a Jump.

[Vodrin Thales]

SpiralRazor, on 03 June 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Uh..no...actually you are incorrect sir. I remember reading many instances of mechs shooting while jumping...It was innaccurate yes, but ive probably read 90% of the Battletech novels and Ive a very firm idea of that. And definitely in the game, if you are shooting and jumping in the same turn, some of those shots are likely when you are in the air since its all abstracted in any case. Thats why there are penalties for shooting while your last move was a Jump.

So what you are saying is that PGI is on the right track when they do something to reduce the accuracy of firing while jumping.

[BootHands]

How is the change being implemented? I play a spider and flying by someone while shooting is a completely legitimate tactic. I get the frustration at poptarts, but please don't do something that hurts lights, which are already in kind of a bad spot to cut it out of the game.

[Pht]

CapperDeluxe, on 20 May 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Jump jet reticle shake will not kill poptarting outright you know. It will make it a bit more difficult and more open to retaliation, and that alone may cause some to not partake anymore. But it will still be a valid tactic and deadly in the right hands. Win-win. See here for a sample of what it could be like from MWLL

Reticule shake is so easily overcome it's not funny.
In reality all reticule shake while jumpin means is that the BEST of the best jump snipers will beat everyone else even MORE badly... and that the basic setup of how the reticule is MEANT to act in a battlemech is being ignored (or simply isn't known).

All you need to do is put a tiny speck of red nail polish exactly at the center of the resting reticule, and just don't swing the arms and such to aim when you jump. Just line it up, jump, shoot, rinse, wash, repeat.


The only way to "fix" poptarting and make it what it should be ... an extremely risky, very hard tactic, with a possible high reward... is to fix the convergence issue and make the 'mechs actually matter in the aiming equation.

Edited by Pht, 03 June 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[keith]

Pht, on 03 June 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Reticule shake is so easily overcome it's not funny.
In reality all reticule shake while jumpin means is that the BEST of the best jump snipers will beat everyone else even MORE badly... and that the basic setup of how the reticule is MEANT to act in a battlemech is being ignored (or simply isn't known).

All you need to do is put a tiny speck of red nail polish exactly at the center of the resting reticule, and just don't swing the arms and such to aim when you jump. Just line it up, jump, shoot, rinse, wash, repeat.


The only way to "fix" poptarting and make it what it should be ... an extremely risky, very hard tactic, with a possible high reward... is to fix the convergence issue and make the 'mechs actually matter in the aiming equation.

yup, the best will still always be the best. another way to fix is to make it have have HUGE amount of convergence while jumping. but there are some mechs that have all weps in arms, or all weps in T, which means that is pointless.

[Vassago Rain]

Pht, on 03 June 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Reticule shake is so easily overcome it's not funny.
In reality all reticule shake while jumpin means is that the BEST of the best jump snipers will beat everyone else even MORE badly... and that the basic setup of how the reticule is MEANT to act in a battlemech is being ignored (or simply isn't known).

All you need to do is put a tiny speck of red nail polish exactly at the center of the resting reticule, and just don't swing the arms and such to aim when you jump. Just line it up, jump, shoot, rinse, wash, repeat.


The only way to "fix" poptarting and make it what it should be ... an extremely risky, very hard tactic, with a possible high reward... is to fix the convergence issue and make the 'mechs actually matter in the aiming equation.

This isn't how it's gonna work.

Think wasteland half-life instead, where the impact point of your bullets go all over when you're jumping. You won't be able to peg anyone from more than medium range while jumping.

[Pht]

keith, on 03 June 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

yup, the best will still always be the best.

Wouldn't it be nice if people believed that good gameplay is gameplay which allows all reasonable styles of playing to have some chance of succceding?

Quote

another way to fix is to make it have have HUGE amount of convergence while jumping.

The TT combat system represents a jump sniper shot as being +6 ... or as being REALLY hard.... and that's not even counting any other factors, like range or weapons type.

Quote

but there are some mechs that have all weps in arms, or all weps in T, which means that is pointless.

It would be nice if they took into account the fact that in the fictional setting, the 'mechs individually aim (converge) every weapon ... and that there is an established baseline of how well a 'mech can do this aiming vs mobile (and immobile) mech sized targets.

.. it would just be so much more flexible and robust.

Vassago Rain, on 03 June 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

This isn't how it's gonna work.

Think wasteland half-life instead, where the impact point of your bullets go all over when you're jumping. You won't be able to peg anyone from more than medium range while jumping.

Than the shaking reticule is merely secondary...

You're saying that they'll actually deconverge the weapons out from under the reticule?


I've been searching for the original source on this ... Got link?

[General Taskeen]

Pht, on 03 June 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

The only way to "fix" poptarting and make it what it should be ... an extremely risky, very hard tactic, with a possible high reward... is to fix the convergence issue and make the 'mechs actually matter in the aiming equation.

The way to do it "right" is the MW:LL way, because they already did it right, and balanced it. A bonus on top of that? The best functioning Jump Jets in any Mech game ever in Mech Warrior history. Play it for yourself and find out.

Edited by General Taskeen, 03 June 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Pht]

General Taskeen, on 03 June 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

The way to do it "right" is the MW:LL way, because they already did it right, and balanced it. A bonus on top of that? The best functioning Jump Jets in any Mech game ever in Mech Warrior history. Play it for yourself and find out.

Refresh my memory ... how did MWLL handle this?

[Vassago Rain]

Pht, on 03 June 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be nice if people believed that good gameplay is gameplay which allows all reasonable styles of playing to have some chance of succceding?



The TT combat system represents a jump sniper shot as being +6 ... or as being REALLY hard.... and that's not even counting any other factors, like range or weapons type.



It would be nice if they took into account the fact that in the fictional setting, the 'mechs individually aim (converge) every weapon ... and that there is an established baseline of how well a 'mech can do this aiming vs mobile (and immobile) mech sized targets.

.. it would just be so much more flexible and robust.



Than the shaking reticule is merely secondary...

You're saying that they'll actually deconverge the weapons out from under the reticule?


I've been searching for the original source on this ... Got link?

The podcast linked to forever in this thread. Poptarting is dead.

Geegee. We should have it tomorrow.

It would be nice if they took into account that FPS games have nothing to do with tabletop games, so a stalker with 5995 guns is way more powerful than an atlas with a tonnage advantage, thus it should have this sort of points system where said stalker is worth 100 points, but the atlas maybe 80, but they don't.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Pht, on 03 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Refresh my memory ... how did MWLL handle this?

You jump a good distance, not float up straight into the air like we see now.

Theres a lot of speed, power, and shakiness that goes into it, but it looks and feels really nice. Mechs can jump into and out of battle and scale terrain quickly and efficiently, and its so shaky you can't fire accurately

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 03 June 2013 - 06:12 PM.