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4 Machineguns Of Fury


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#1 Carrioncrows

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:54 AM

...still useless.

Dear Devs,

Dmg: 0.2 dmg a shot - 0.1 dmg from 90m-200m
ROF: 10 shots a sec
Ammo: 400 rounds for a full ton, 200 rounds for a 1/2 ton.

Do it.

Please stop wasting our time it is getting really annoying and give us a "WEAPON" that is "VIABLE"

Us: Buff MG's
You: We are buffing MG!!
Us: Yah!
You: We gave it crit multiplier, but only on components.
Us: WTF? Who cares we want a weapon, BUFF MG.
You: We are buffing MG!
US: YAH!
You: We increased the range and doubled the uselessness.
US: This post-

Hey, you can blow the **** out of everything else in this game but heaven forbid someone deals damage with a machinegun.

Don't Care about crits
Don't care about killing components
Don't Care about sparkels
Don't Care about how much ammo it has
Don't Care about it's supposed Role.

What I care about it is does it deal viable damage. If it doesn't it has no place in this game.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 21 May 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#2 stjobe

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:58 AM

I happily jumped into my 4 MG SDR-5K to try them out.

Result: Effective DPS is up to 0.5 DPS per MG (from 0.23)

Verdict: Still useless.

Request: Buff them properly in the very next patch. 2 DPS if you keep the spread, 1.0-1.2 if you lose the spread. Drop the crit buff altogether, it was always a bad idea. Adjust ammo per ton to 750 if 2 DPS, 1500 if 1 DPS.

Just do it. Stop faffing about and give us useful MGs already.

#3 keith

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

but it can kill infantry really good

#4 Zyllos

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

Machine Guns (and in that matter, LBX) should not be destroying armor but destroying internal equipment.

The reason why they are worthless when doing their job is because PGI has a broken critical hit mechanic and it's too easy to place all weapon systems into a single section.

I say fix the critical hit system and pin point convergence before buffing the Machine Guns (and LBX) damage.

Edited by Zyllos, 21 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.


#5 Kitane

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:17 PM

Ran into MG boating Cicada with my X-5. She shredded my CT faster than usual Streak Ravens/Jenners.

#6 stjobe

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:30 PM

View PostZyllos, on 21 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Machine Guns (and in that matter, LBX) should not be destroying armor but destroying internal equipment.

A weapon that cannot destroy armour cannot destroy internal equipment.
Conversely, any weapon that CAN destroy armour is equally effective at destroying internal equipment.

That's the problem with these "crit weapons" - they're inferior to other weapons even at the things they are meant to excel at.

There's no such thing as a "crit weapon" in BattleTech, it's completely a MWO phenomenon. Dual MGs in BT was a serious threat to light 'mechs due to their ability to damage armour - and they were a serious threat to heavier 'mechs because ANY weapon could score a through-armour crit on a roll of 2 on two dice.

There' simply no *need* for a "crit weapon" in MWO, but there IS a need for a viable, light-weight ballistic weapon - something that he "crit weapon" idea denies us when it's applied to the MG. By all means keep it for the LBX if you absolutely must have a "crit weapon", but for all that's BattleTech let the MG be a regular armour-damaging weapon like it's supposed to be.

Edited by stjobe, 21 May 2013 - 12:31 PM.


#7 Carrioncrows

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:41 PM

If machine guns had a chance to crit to do EXTRA Damage - no "just to components" I would be fine.

But they need to be a viable weapon on their own. If I just have 2 MG's I should be able to both do damage and kill another mech, just like Battletech intended.

This stems from all stock mechs should be viable, they work in battletech why don't they work on MWO?

I want them to work. Period.

None of this qualifying nonsense.

@Kitane
I highly doubt it was the Mgun's that cored you, more than likely it was the ERPPC or LRG Pulse that did the trick

#8 Zyllos

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:01 PM

View Poststjobe, on 21 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

A weapon that cannot destroy armour cannot destroy internal equipment.
Conversely, any weapon that CAN destroy armour is equally effective at destroying internal equipment.

That's the problem with these "crit weapons" - they're inferior to other weapons even at the things they are meant to excel at.

There's no such thing as a "crit weapon" in BattleTech, it's completely a MWO phenomenon. Dual MGs in BT was a serious threat to light 'mechs due to their ability to damage armour - and they were a serious threat to heavier 'mechs because ANY weapon could score a through-armour crit on a roll of 2 on two dice.

There' simply no *need* for a "crit weapon" in MWO, but there IS a need for a viable, light-weight ballistic weapon - something that he "crit weapon" idea denies us when it's applied to the MG. By all means keep it for the LBX if you absolutely must have a "crit weapon", but for all that's BattleTech let the MG be a regular armour-damaging weapon like it's supposed to be.


Actually, there is. Weapons that fired multiple times in a single firing where critical hit weapons. SRMs, LRMs, and LBX were critical seeking weapons (the Machine Gun was not a critical seeking weapon due to only 1 shot per turn but that has translated differently into MWO).

The reason why SRMs and LBX was not effective against armor in CBT is because they did not focus all their damage onto the location that was hit, instead they spread all over the mech that was hit. But this is effective for seeking critical hits because you only need 1 point of damage to hit that open location (and doing high points of damage didn't matter) and something was getting destroyed in that section.

In MWO, internal equipment (and not internal sections, that is different) have HP ranging from 13 to 3, with the average basically at 10 HP. This makes weapons that deal 10 HP much more effective at destroying equipment than many small hits because they only have to hit the critical hit chance once and they will destroy most stuff. The smaller weapons need MANY critical hits before they destroy a single item due to dealing less than 10 HP and randoming to other items in the same section.

That isn't an issue in CBT because one hit destroys a whole item but MWO, this is not the case. If the critical seeking weapons were more effective than any other weapons at destroying items at their optimal distance, you would see their effectiveness.

I honestly think the first order of balancing them is making all weapons have the same critical seeking chance. I don't understand why the "critical seeking" weapons have almost a 41% reduction in critical hit chance over "non-critical seeking weaopns" that almost always hit harder than the "critical seeking" weapons.

All weapons should have a 25% chance for 1x, 14% for 2x, and 3% for 3x.

Next, critical seeking weapons need to assume an average number of hits at optimal range. The LBX is mainly the culprit here because of the wide spread. If you assume you fire at a stationary target at maximum optimal distance of Medium size should have 3 pellets hitting it on average, then the pellets critical hit damage should be factored into that calculation. The same goes for the Machine Gun, assuming 1.0s worth of fire at a target at maximum optimal range.

Once you have determined that number, buff the damage of critical hits to be on par with non-critical seeking weapons. Thus, I would suggest making the critical damage factor of the LBX to be 3x to be on par with the AC/10 (similar weapon), assuming the critical hit chance is the changed to 25%/14%/3%.

The Machine Gun should keep the critical damage factor of 12.5x, which makes it deal 1 damage per critical hit, but this is assuming it should have the same critical hit chances, 25%/14%/3%.

#9 Dawnstealer

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostCarrioncrows, on 21 May 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

...still useless.

Dear Devs,

Dmg: 0.2 dmg a shot - 0.1 dmg from 90m-200m
ROF: 10 shots a sec
Ammo: 400 rounds for a full ton, 200 rounds for a 1/2 ton.

Do it.

Please stop wasting our time it is getting really annoying and give us a "WEAPON" that is "VIABLE"

Us: Buff MG's
You: We are buffing MG!!
Us: Yah!
You: We gave it crit multiplier, but only on components.
Us: WTF? Who cares we want a weapon, BUFF MG.
You: We are buffing MG!
US: YAH!
You: We increased the range and doubled the uselessness.
US: This post-

Hey, you can blow the **** out of everything else in this game but heaven forbid someone deals damage with a machinegun.

Don't Care about crits
Don't care about killing components
Don't Care about sparkels
Don't Care about how much ammo it has
Don't Care about it's supposed Role.

What I care about it is does it deal viable damage. If it doesn't it has no place in this game.

I don't even use machine guns and I'm on board with this. Unless they're the TOAD-killer or something when the Clans start chucking Elementals at us...

#10 Zyllos

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostCarrioncrows, on 21 May 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

If machine guns had a chance to crit to do EXTRA Damage - no "just to components" I would be fine. But they need to be a viable weapon on their own. If I just have 2 MG's I should be able to both do damage and kill another mech, just like Battletech intended. This stems from all stock mechs should be viable, they work in battletech why don't they work on MWO? I want them to work. Period. None of this qualifying nonsense. @Kitane I highly doubt it was the Mgun's that cored you, more than likely it was the ERPPC or LRG Pulse that did the trick


The damage in this game is way out of wack when it comes to the critical hit mechanic. You rarely destroyed a section of armor on a mech before killing basically everything in that section in CBT. It's the complete opposite in MWO due to critical hit damage instead of critical hit destroying an item.

All weapons shouldn't be build just to remove a section as quickly as possible. And that is what the LBX and SRMs where suppose to be good at, destroying items instead of destroying sections.

#11 stjobe

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostZyllos, on 21 May 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

I don't understand why the "critical seeking" weapons have almost a 41% reduction in critical hit chance over "non-critical seeking weaopns" that almost always hit harder than the "critical seeking" weapons.

They don't. The numbers you saw in the patch notes is the increase in crit chance, not the total crit chance. Yes, it's badly worded. No, that's not all that uncommon in the MWO patch notes.

View PostZyllos, on 21 May 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

All weapons should have a 25% chance for 1x, 14% for 2x, and 3% for 3x.

They do. Except the "crit weapons" which have an additional 25% chance to crit (19% for the MG after this patch).

Ponder the life-expectancy of a 'mech with an exposed location. Ponder whether that life expectancy increases or decreases in ANY discernible way by getting the internal components critted away.

Here's a hint: You're usually dead or dismembered before you even notice your weapons are gone - unless your enemy uses "crit weapons", then you get to live until someone with real weapons come along, see you have no armour on section X, and puts you out of your misery.

So the main issue still remains:
1. There's no need for special crit weapons in MWO.
2. There IS a need for a light-weight ballistics weapon in MWO.

Apart from gameplay and lore reasons, the MG is also the absolute *worst* choice for a "crit weapon" they could have chosen, due to there being no other weapon in the ballistic line under six tons. As a comparison, the energy line has seven weapons under six tons, LRMs have two, and all SRMs are under six tons. Picking the MG as a "crit weapon" seriously hampers light and medium ballistic 'mechs.

#12 Tie Ma

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:36 PM

they need to tighten the cone

dps is almost on par with the small laser.
but the cone means that at 100m, dps is still 1/3 that of the small laser.

Edited by Tie Ma, 21 May 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#13 Zyllos

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

View Poststjobe, on 21 May 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

They don't. The numbers you saw in the patch notes is the increase in crit chance, not the total crit chance. Yes, it's badly worded. No, that's not all that uncommon in the MWO patch notes.


They do. Except the "crit weapons" which have an additional 25% chance to crit (19% for the MG after this patch).

Ponder the life-expectancy of a 'mech with an exposed location. Ponder whether that life expectancy increases or decreases in ANY discernible way by getting the internal components critted away.

Here's a hint: You're usually dead or dismembered before you even notice your weapons are gone - unless your enemy uses "crit weapons", then you get to live until someone with real weapons come along, see you have no armour on section X, and puts you out of your misery.

So the main issue still remains:
1. There's no need for special crit weapons in MWO.
2. There IS a need for a light-weight ballistics weapon in MWO.

Apart from gameplay and lore reasons, the MG is also the absolute *worst* choice for a "crit weapon" they could have chosen, due to there being no other weapon in the ballistic line under six tons. As a comparison, the energy line has seven weapons under six tons, LRMs have two, and all SRMs are under six tons. Picking the MG as a "crit weapon" seriously hampers light and medium ballistic 'mechs.


I am almost certain that is incorrect about the critical hit % being wrong because I was looking at a guide, not the old patch notes.

And the problem is then that players can place too much damage at a given time onto a target of their choosing. MWO doesn't need to be "fastest damage to take out a section as fast as possible" all the time. That is why you see the poptarter PPC/Gauss strategy is because you can just take out a section due to all weapons hitting a single point.

EDIT: Ok, now I see, the LBX/Machine Gun is 39%/24%/8%. But my initial idea still stands, the damage of the LBX/Machine Gun needs to be much higher so that you can destroy weapons/equipment easily. I need to test the new Machine Gun damage and critical hit changes and the narrower LBX to see if the majority of the pellets hit at optimal range.

Edited by Zyllos, 21 May 2013 - 01:44 PM.


#14 stjobe

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostZyllos, on 21 May 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:


I am almost certain that is incorrect about the critical hit % being wrong because I was looking at a guide, not the old patch notes.

These are the facts:

All weapons
25% chance to crit for 1x damage (5 for a ML, 10 for a PPC)
14% chance to crit for 2x damage (10 / 20)
3% chance to crit for 3x damage (15 / 30)
42% total crit chance

MGs (with their 12.5x crit damage buff)
36% chance to crit for 1 damage
20% chance to crit for 2 damage
5% chance to crit for 3 damage.
61% total crit chance

LB10-X and Flamer
39% chance to crit for 1x damage (1 for the LBX, 0.44 for the Flamer)
24% chance to crit for 2x damage (2 / 0.88)
6% chance to crit for 3x damage (3 / 1.32)
69% total crit chance

Edited by stjobe, 21 May 2013 - 01:51 PM.


#15 Tarrasque

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:56 PM

View Poststjobe, on 21 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

A weapon that cannot destroy armour cannot destroy internal equipment.
Conversely, any weapon that CAN destroy armour is equally effective at destroying internal equipment.


I follow you on the second point, but the first?

So you're telling me that something that is incapable of penetrating armor designed to absorb damage of all types is therefore equally incapable of damaging the things that are being protected by that armor?

The innards of a Battlemech are far more vulnerable to damage than the armor of it - think about throwing a grenade inside a tank. A grenade may not destroy armor on a tank, but damaging the internal components of it is viable.

I agree they haven't yet implemented support weapons correctly, but I think its a great idea that will come to fruition.

#16 stjobe

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostTarrasque, on 21 May 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:


I follow you on the second point, but the first?

Add "...on its own" if it helps explain it. A weapon that cannot damage armour can never *get* to the internal components, so it is useless for 2/3rds of the fight (max armour is double internal structure, or 2/3rds of total health of a section).

And even when some other weapon strips away the armour, allowing the "crit weapon" to go to work, it is in almost every conceivable situation better to continue shooting with the regular weapon and destroy the section than to switch to the "crit weapon" and have some weapons critted out a second or two before the whole section is destroyed.

On the other hand, a weapon that can damage armour is useful for the whole fight, and as pointed out above, only has a slightly lower crit chance than the "crit weapons" - and since most of the regular weapons do much more damage, they are also that more effective in removing sections competely, internal components and all.

That's why "crit weapons" in MWO is a failed concept. It's also a bad idea for other reasons, as I've outlined in several posts above.

Edited by stjobe, 21 May 2013 - 02:14 PM.


#17 Tickdoff Tank

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:14 PM

View Poststjobe, on 21 May 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Add "...on its own" if it helps explain it. A weapon that cannot damage armour can never *get* to the internal components, so it is useless for 2/3rds of the fight (max armour is double internal structure, or 2/3rds of total health of a section).

And even when some other weapon strips away the armour, allowing the "crit weapon" to go to work, it is in almost every conceivable situation better to continue shooting with the regular weapon and destroy the section than to switch to the "crit weapon" and have some weapons critted out a second or two before the whole section is destroyed.

On the other hand, a weapon that can damage armour is useful for the whole fight, and as pointed out above, only has a slightly lower crit chance than the "crit weapons" - and since most of the regular weapons do much more damage, they are also that more effective in removing sections competely, internal components and all.

That's why "crit weapons" in MWO is a failed concept. It's also a bad idea for other reasons, as I've outlined in several posts above.


Glad to see you are still fighting the good fight StJobe. I have almost given up.

#18 MasterErrant

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:52 PM

according to smurfy's the mg does .8dps the SL 1.0 the MG does 2/3 the damage of the SL in TT so it is already buffed beyond the original scale. it is a minor thirdline weapon. if S's is right then mg x4 gives you comparable damage to an ac5 for 1/3 the weight. what's wrong with that?

#19 Carrioncrows

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

Also keep in mind the MG is 1.5 tons and the SL is 0.5

#20 Gamgee

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:16 PM

NEEDS MORE DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/thread over.





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