181 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Sesmic is balanced.
It's one of the new systems they added, along with BAP to help make the Raven a mortal, instead of a literal deux ex mechina

Two things:

1. It's already mortal even without abusing BAP + easymode Streaks and/or Seismic. Ravens die all the time to ballistics and energy weapons if you aim at them.

2. This nerfs every single light and fast medium, not just the 3L. Stop letting your hatred of one borked variant cloud your opinion of the entire weight class and class above it.

Edited by FupDup, 21 May 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[trollocaustic]

So Commandos and jenners jetting and running behind a assault to kill it without any retalation is balanced.
So a Light or Cicada barging into cap and winning before the other team can fight back is balanced.
The problem with lights is simple.
I think you refer to ERPPC when you say energy weapons, as lasers are near-useless when faced with a light, they move too fast to keep a bead on them for a full second.
If your rotation can keep up with them a full second.

[TOGSolid]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Sesmic is balanced.
It's one of the new systems they added, along with BAP to help make the Raven a mortal, instead of a literal deux ex mechina

It really isn't. I've got the advanced version and it is just way too good for what it does. Game breaking? Nah, but it is stupidly powerful. Either enemy mechs should only be detected if they're going at a specific throttle percentage (i.e. more than something like 50%), or your seismic sensor gets bad readings if you're going too fast. Both would make sense since either A.) the enemy isn't making enough noise (they're essentially walking to stay off radar B.) you're creating too much noise (like a sub cavitating and causing their towed array to get messed up). Another potential fix would be to have it so that if the target has an equal to or higher throttle rating than you then they show up, though this may be needlessly complicated.

This has nothing to do with lights really. It's powerful against everything. You can't get ambushed, you can't turn a bad corner. You're literally omnipotent within 400 meters.

Note: I generally don't pilot scouts. I play brawlers and mid-range sweepers like the Dragon. For guys like me, the Seismic is massively powerful and just objectively too good for it does. Do I use it anyway? Hell yeah I do, but I also admit it's a little overpowered.

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as lasers are near-useless when faced with a light

You are so incredibly wrong it almost hurts to read this. Lasers are one of the premier anti-fast mover weapons since you're guaranteed to do at least a little bit of damage to the target.

Edited by TOGSolid, 21 May 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[FupDup]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

So Commandos and jenners jetting and running behind a assault to kill it without any retalation is balanced.

Hit reverse throttle and turn around in the opposite direction of where he is circling you. Any mech that gets behind you will kill you, it's just that lights can do it a lot easier and more often due to their speed.

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

So a Light or Cicada barging into cap and winning before the other team can fight back is balanced.

Lights have exponentially less armor and firepower at the advantage of speed. Speed doesn't let them dodge for crap unless against incompetent opponents, and lock-on missiles are completely impossible to dodge without having cover nearby. Since they're less effective at direct combat, they tend to do non-combat tasks like capture objectives to balance it out. They have to be good at either objectives or combat. Bigger mechs are better at combat so lights are better at objectives to even it out. You seem to want them to suck at both.

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

The problem with lights is simple.

It's incredibly simple: it doesn't exist. The only light you can make a case for being imbalanced is probably the cookie-cutter configuration of the 3L. That's it.

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

I think you refer to ERPPC when you say energy weapons, as lasers are near-useless when faced with a light, they move too fast to keep a bead on them for a full second.
If your rotation can keep up with them a full second.

Lasers, particularly the large class, are one of the best counters to lights. Just rake the beams across their legs a few times and boom. To keep them in your rotation, just move in reverse because you turn faster when walking backwards than forwards. Upgrading your engine a few ratings will help as well. There's also pulse lasers for a shorter beam duration and higher focused damage.

Edited by FupDup, 21 May 2013 - 07:15 PM.

[trollocaustic]

I'd rather back up to a wall, if possible, and raking large laser across their legs, while effective, requries you to be face-to-face. It's a rare situation that requires you to outhink the light (More effort to equalize)

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Lights have exponentially less armor and firepower at the advantage of speed. Speed doesn't let them dodge for crap unless against incompetent opponents, and lock-on missiles are completely impossible to dodge without having cover nearby. Since they're less effective at direct combat, they tend to do non-combat tasks like capture objectives to balance it out. They have to be good at either objectives or combat. Bigger mechs are better at combat so lights are better at objectives to even it out. You seem to want them to suck at both.

No, Speed makes hitting them harder, add in vibrations from taking damage from non-laser sources, lock on missiles taking a long time to lock-on and doing them better by about 10% is ok, but they're still incredibly better at traditonal combat due to speed than you seem to realize.

As a 4-large stalker, I know plenty about legging lights, but with their small fast moving hitboxes, very little damge is dealt, often far less in comparison to their leg armor than how much their 4 MLs do to your CT.

[Deathlike]

The sad thing is... at certain times, I could literally detect the ENTIRE enemy team with this module. It's like a free wallhack and I can easily plan/snipe/brawl effectively just knowing where the enemy is. It is mech size indiscriminant.

It works in various ways:

1) Brawlers - know when and where to move to the closest/easiest target of opportunity.

2) Snipers/Missile boats - know when and where to move away from incoming targets and/or asking for help.

3) Lights/fast mechs - easily able to track and chase all other lights/fast mechs.

The range is incredible... so the frequency and range are actual problems with the module. It brings an entire new meaning to Information Warfare.

The worst part.. there is no counter.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 May 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[FupDup]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

No, Speed makes hitting them harder, add in vibrations from taking damage from non-laser sources, lock on missiles taking a long time to lock-on and doing them better by about 10% is ok, but they're still incredibly better at traditonal combat due to speed than you seem to realize.

As a 4-large stalker, I know plenty about legging lights, but with their small fast moving hitboxes, very little damge is dealt, often far less in comparison to their leg armor than how much their 4 MLs do to your CT.

Except that a light who stays in the open and brawls ("traditional combat") will usually get alpha-striked and either killed instantly by that or legged and then killed shortly thereafter. With HSR, aiming at them isn't nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be. To survive, they have to weave in and out of cover and hit when you're not looking.

Large-laser Stalker is probably one of the more feared anti-light configurations out there, even more so than the Streakkat A1 because it has more than double range and can't be blocked by ECM.

Edited by FupDup, 21 May 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[YueFei]

They gotta make the detection range based on some formula of mass*speed. An Atlas at full tilt should ripple this thing from far away, but a light mech walking around should not trigger it unless it is super close.

Similar to players in Counterstrike walking to avoid being detected by the sound of their footsteps.

[XX Sulla XX]

Its perfect leave it alone Hopefully most people will just complain about LRMs and leave my seismic alone.

You know whats interesting is how many people I have killed from behind with my DDC tonight. Are they not using BAP and or seismic? Any way its a huge help with my DDC while pugging. I can now much better tell when to commit. Partly because of seismic and partly because even with ECM I can still see my team. Now if they just give a damage bump to SRMs I will be very happy.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 21 May 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

Deathlike, on 21 May 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

The sad thing is... at certain times, I could literally detect the ENTIRE enemy team with this module. It's like a free wallhack and I can easily plan/snipe/brawl effectively just knowing where the enemy is. It is mech size indiscriminant.

It works in various ways:

1) Brawlers - know when and where to move to the closest/easiest target of opportunity.

2) Snipers/Missile boats - know when and where to move away from incoming targets and/or asking for help.

3) Lights/fast mechs - easily able to track and chase all other lights/fast mechs.

The range is incredible... so the frequency and range are actual problems with the module. It brings an entire new meaning to Information Warfare.

The worst part.. there is no counter.

Or weight or downside. It does seem like the kind of ability that should have a counter to it.

[trollocaustic]

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They gotta make the detection range based on some formula of mass*speed. An Atlas at full tilt should ripple this thing from far away, but a light mech walking around should not trigger it unless it is super close.

Oh because a weapon specially designed to counter lightflanking should be useless against it.

[FupDup]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Oh because a weapon specially designed to counter lightflanking should be useless against it.

It counters all mech flanking, it's just that lights can't survive without flanking whereas other mechs can just attack head on.

[trollocaustic]

And the problem is?
Light mechs still have the option of the following
A: Realise that 400m is nothing and go full steam ahead and get there.
B: I don't know, USE THE TERRAIN like the snipers they so loathe for being better than them
C: just ball-rush in, abuse the 200% armor to survive the few weapons that hit, and get to the rear end of a mech, where they can just pound it with no retaliation.
Light mechs still need nerfing hard.

[XX Sulla XX]

That is if people use it. And if they do use it use it correctly. Been flanking all night and hitting from behind in my DDC. I dont think most people can be using it. Or they are not using the info well. Any my slow Atlas can flank you can do it in your light. I just do not see it being a problem yet. Maybe in the future but not yet.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 21 May 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

It counters all mech flanking, it's just that lights can't survive without flanking whereas other mechs can just attack head on.

Actually it allows more flanking, cuz you can find the correct angles via scouting.

WAAAAH?!!?

[FupDup]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

And the problem is?
Light mechs still have the option of the following
A: Realise that 400m is nothing and go full steam ahead and get there.
B: I don't know, USE THE TERRAIN like the snipers they so loathe for being better than them
C: just ball-rush in, abuse the 200% armor to survive the few weapons that hit, and get to the rear end of a mech, where they can just pound it with no retaliation.
Light mechs still need nerfing hard.

You're really going to persist about this aren't you? Flaws in your post:


1. Going full stream ahead when they know you're coming is tantamount to suicide as any mech class.

2. Seismic sees through terrain.

3a. 200% armor benefits assaults more than lights, because they have more armor to be doubled in the first place. Weapons don't do % damage, they do a static value; therefore meaning that the mechs with more armor to double receive a greater benefit. Example: A Jenner's CT in MWO gets 18 more armor points, whereas an Atlas gets 48 more (assuming you have 96 CT armor and 28 rear CT).

3b. Hitting and tracking lights isn't even as remotely as difficult as you're making it out to be.


By this point I am fully convinced that you are not playing the same Mechwarrior: Online that I am. I wouldn't be horribly surprised if you want this to turn into some Lyran Alliance sandbox for your Steiner Scout Lances just like every previous Mechwarrior iteration has.

Soy, on 21 May 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Actually it allows more flanking, cuz you can find the correct angles via scouting.

WAAAAH?!!?

Unless the enemy is equipped with it and sees you coming. Flanking attempt foiled.

Edited by FupDup, 21 May 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[trollocaustic]

Quote

200% armor benefits assaults more than lights, because they have more armor to be doubled in the first place. Weapons don't do % damage, they do a static value; therefore meaning that the mechs with more armor to double receive a greater benefit.

Oh god, this crappile again?
Assaults do not benefit at all from doubled armor, it just makes assaults last about as long as they should.Lights however? The longer fights without halved speed just tilt it towards lights like putting a blue whale on one side of a scale measuring feathers tilts something.

Quote

2. Seismic sees through terrain.

Use terrain to get at their rear by doing something more intelligent than bolting on a easymode cruising module and barging in. Power down and wait, or is that too difficult for a light mech?

Edited by trollocaustic, 21 May 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[FupDup]

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Oh god, this crappile again?
Assaults do not benefit at all from doubled armor, it just makes assaults last about as long as they should.
Lights however? The longer fights without halved speed just tilt it towards lights like putting a blue whale on one side of a scale measuring feathers tilts something.

Oh god, this crappile again?

Assaults benefit a lot more from doubled armor. A Jenner's CT gains 18 extra points and an Atlas's gains 48. Damage isn't scaled based on percentages of health, it's a static value. For instance, an Atlas can survive more than four extra AC/20 hits and a Jenner can only survive one more.


I'm starting to seriously wonder, what the heck is your vision of what lights should be in MWO? I want to hear it so that I can expose every last little flaw, loophole, inconsistency, and lie that is sure to be riddled within it. You've mentioned earlier that you don't like it when lights cap. You also don't like them being able to move fast. You also don't like that they have armor. You don't like it when they try to be sneaky. You don't like them having a smaller physical size. What role, exactly, does that leave the class with?

trollocaustic, on 21 May 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Use terrain to get at their rear by doing something more intelligent than bolting on a easymode cruising module and barging in. Power down and wait, or is that too difficult for a light mech?

You missed the point. You can't use the terrain to get at their rear because the Seismic sensor will reveal you no matter what angle you approach from. Powering down and waiting doesn't enable one to sneak around, either, because you're immobile and totally dependent on how much the enemies like camping. If they stay in one place, you can't get within 400m of that area without being revealed.

Edited by FupDup, 21 May 2013 - 09:34 PM.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 21 May 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Unless the enemy is equipped with it and sees you coming. Flanking attempt foiled.

Well duh. Cuz it's LORD.

[YueFei]

Soy, on 21 May 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Actually it allows more flanking, cuz you can find the correct angles via scouting.

WAAAAH?!!?

If the other team is using it also, they will see your flanking maneuver developing before it actually hits them, and can redeploy to meet it.

Unless you can walk your way in without rippling the sensor. I am totally OK with even the bigger mechs being able to evade detection from this thing by creeping in slowly.