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Missile Update - Feedback


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#381 Thorqemada

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:49 AM

View PostLex Peregrine, on 23 May 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:



Its sad that when PGI decides to improve the values of a weapon like the LRM or the PPC, there's always people willing to exploit that to the maximun.


That is natural the way of things...therefore you need sane Limits implemented that allow a good, diverse and fun gameplay.

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 May 2013 - 06:49 AM.


#382 MasterBLB

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:59 AM

Hmm,after a bit thinking I find current missile flight paths to targets behind a cover could stay as they are now - but only and only alone when there is a spotter with a direct line of sight to it or target is spotted by UAV.
That behavior would promote more closer teamwork.

#383 Peter22

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:21 AM

Its like...

...without aiming.

Edited by Peter22, 23 May 2013 - 07:22 AM.


#384 Least Action Jackson

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:29 AM

This exact problem (LRM trajectories bringing missiles vertically down on people's heads) happened before. It was a major hotfix issue. The only difference now is that LRM's do far less damage than previously. Damage notwithstanding, this is still a hotfix issue. I resigned myself to running an LRM Atlas for the next two weeks, because if I attempt to run anything else, the sky falls on me when I try to get a direct firing solution.

Also, for the love of sweet fancy Moses, why didn't SRM's get some kind of commensurate damage buff? They are laughably ineffective, and would it be so hard to pop open your table of parameters, go the line for SRM damage, and change the number on the right side of the equals sign from 1.5 to 1.8 (or 2.0, or something)?

#385 Dude42

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:45 AM

View PostElLocoMarko, on 23 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Please remember that not playing is the most powerful statement you can make.

I'd like to thank the more level-headed community members for calmly and promptly reporting on the new patch. It didn't take long on the forums to filter the wheat from the chaff and decide not to patch.

Your loss.

#386 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:53 AM

I'm honestly surprised that of all the things in the last 6 months, THIS is the one people are choosing to quit over.

The Poptart/Sniper meta was WAY worse than this. And there have been a few obvious "money grab" patches that didn't even attempt to balance or fix the game.

But because of 3 admitted bugs that are high priority, have been admitted/communicated about, that will be fixed within 1-2 weeks.

People are freaking out, not because of the bugs, but because a lot of people have grown lazy and complacent while missiles were completely fubar.

#387 Welfur

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:01 AM

View PostMad Porthos, on 21 May 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Wow, talk about hyperbole and exaggeration. I guess I will have to be the devil's advocate here and address a few things I've seen from playing in the few hours since the patch. I'll also explain a few things I think are being missed by players of this game who have vested interests in thier own Flavors of the Month builds remaining popular and active, but not seeing the return of things that used to work well to disuade them.

I've had some experience in doing play testing and beta testing in a number of titles and mods over the years. One of those I was in a group in was the mod for the Desert Combat mod (0.8) of Battlefield 1942. I don't mean some Rommel warfare in tanks in North Africa, I mean the mod that made the game more or less "modern" warfare, before battlefield 2 came out, with abrahams tanks, apache and cobra gunships, russian tanks in Iraqi colors, missles, jets and expansive maps. It was alot of fun working with a few of the Modders and I enjoyed it. One of the things that some of the modellers and some of those working on the weapons mods and physics were doing was trying to get a little bit of realism into weapon behaviors and flight paths of missiles. In the end I think they failed miserably, but what they settled for was what was fun, not overly fatal. I was able to be involved in a bit of that and see some of what they did. One of the interesting research tools available even then a decade ago was Janes Defense, which publishes defense and weapons analysis journals, as well as videos and promotional things for the defense industry which is always trying to sell a new weapons system or other doo dad to the armed forces.

Some of those videos showed how modern day... actually obsolete at this point, lock on weapons worked, what level of agility they had and how persistent thier locks were, regardless of battlefield jamming, chaff, flares, flakk what have you. Some of them would put streaks to shame. And they move in an incredibly violent flash at that range, but still can do elbow turns, s turns, curlicues and the like in homing in on whatever their lock was established on.

As for indirect fire, with a spotter... even two decades ago, one could steer a missile down a corridor entrance to a bunker, or have it drop/burn straight down on top of a person or tank that was behind a building after burning in an upward arc to get velocity and height. There are weapons that are man portable that can be set to detonate after passing through a building, or reaching an EXACT distance in meters... after plowing through trees, grass and even masonry walls.

These standard arcs are good. Even the spotted arcs are realistic and good. They underline the usefulness of a real spotter, exactly what people want to encourage scouts and other mechs to do, using TAG etc. If the QQ about these missile burn vectors nerfs indirect fire to be even more direct than it is, all it does is take a few steps back from something that finally is positive about team work, using a spotter for effective INDIRECT fire.

To Recap :

- The current trajectories without spotting are fine, already stated and believed by Paul Inoyue and apparently others.

- Seems that the knee jerk reaction from players to change and the return of LRM effectiveness has been to misidentify the Spotter assisted steep arc in missile angle as being unfair or unbalanced and inappropriate, DESPITE it being the whole advantage of indirect fire and using a Spotter - and being entirely realistic, plausible and appropriate.

- Suggest you resist this knee jerk reaction to change spotter assisted missile vectors and pay attention to how scouts/lights/taggers are being used to assist the team in using LRMs for indirect fire, a long standing tactic and aspect of battletech/mechwarrior game play.

That's about all I've got for ya now. Yeah, I expect people to disagree, but had to say something.

- Madporthos

P.S.: Just noted something above, situation mentioned by another poster. Being hit behind a hill or building or tall wall as being something that never should happen. Well, just about any vehicle that runs in any way, in any temperature generates heat, even internal combustion engines. This heat goes generally straight up in the air, though it might trail off in the wind. It's called a heat plume. Missiles target such and ride it in to the hottest point, the vehicle. That's what should happen. Often. Repeatedly. Yes, this is a fantasy giant stompy tank game, very true. But it's a game where we are screaming around in walking fusion plants generating thousands of degrees of temperature that has to be expelled out into the environment around you... missles ain't blind, your enemy isn't either and thats what they are getting locks on, even with you behind cover, out of line of sight, behind the building, or wall. Or should be at least. Lord knows that's a level of detail that perhaps would be too much for general player base, but it's still not too much to say that having it as it is now shows a "resemblance" to reality, versimilitude. That's to be desired.


You are so right and so wrong at the same time. You are right, all those missile arcs are right or even not dangerous enaugh. You are right with all your argument. But you missed one point (the most important one).
MW:O is not a die hard military simulation, which only caters to perfectly build teams.
It lives and dies with the guys and gals who have the money to pay for all this luxury items in the cash shop. And those people are mostly randoms who want to have fun. They have no clue (mostly) of teamwork. They don't understand proper military tactics. They see flashy big machines with big guns and LRM's spoils there fun.
So PGI have to nerve them down. The classic BT board game was very well balanced (until clans emerged at least) but you can't translate this balance to MW:O, cause here you have human "teammembers" who do as they please and not as one expects or believes is useful.
Only my two cents
Welfur

#388 General Taskeen

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostVXJaeger, on 23 May 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Holy s**t, he must have had army of commandos pushing him, because with that load theres hardly tonnage left for engine, armor or ammo :) I packed 4*LRM15 to my 5S, and had to install smallest XL-engine who doesn't need external DHS and strip away somewhat 2,5 tons of armor to get tonnage for having enough LRM-ammo, BAP, 2*AMS+ammo and 4*ML fitted in.


Um what?

STK-3H Missiles Man

or a Big Brother Yeoman Alternative

STK-3F Yeo-mon, Gotta catch em all!

#389 Ihasa

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:16 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 23 May 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'm honestly surprised that of all the things in the last 6 months, THIS is the one people are choosing to quit over.

The Poptart/Sniper meta was WAY worse than this. And there have been a few obvious "money grab" patches that didn't even attempt to balance or fix the game.

But because of 3 admitted bugs that are high priority, have been admitted/communicated about, that will be fixed within 1-2 weeks.

People are freaking out, not because of the bugs, but because a lot of people have grown lazy and complacent while missiles were completely fubar.


It may not be this patch as a standalone item Nicholas, it might be the fact this is but one in a long line of inadeguate patches, and inability to properly manage a weapon system when it comes to missiles, that drove people off the edge. The last straw as it were. For me, I love playing missile support but I won't play (much) with a known broken mechanic. So its either back to my 6LL stalker (too slow and no AMS) or my streak stalker (also borked) or don't play. Also, all this patch really did for me was continue to erode my confidence in PGI as anything but a bargain-bin developer.

Or they just all hate missiles and like poptarting, that much.

#390 Fleur du Mal

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

I saved several month to get me a new CPU to get this game running smoother. And I could dramatically increase my FPS. Until the patch before the last, which cost me an average 15 fps and I'm not much better than before my old CPU again.

Nevertheless, I did even spend some money and still could have some fun on low settings.

With the last patch everthing is gone. My SRMs dont harm anyone anymore, my damage is reduced to about a third of what is was before the last patch. Additionally there are loads of LRM-boats raining down ridiciculous amounts of rockets. Teamplay is gone, Wanna-be-ninja-solitaire-fighter-sniper-multi-purpose-weapons-one-man-armys spread in one, LRM boats in another direction. Then the disgusting (is that new too?) LRM sound and the party is over.
All I see are LRM boats and solitair PPC snipers, mostly in pretty heavy Mechs. That is why u offered Medium-Mech Weekend prior to this patch, to really annoy your customers. Yes, spend ur money and buy urself a medium Mech, next patch makes it useless for only heavies stick a chance with the crap the last patch did. BIG ******** PATCH.

#391 Karr285

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:01 AM

Yet another silly patch that got added and now we have to wait until the next patch before it gets fixed? So we just get told Oh well deal with broken missiles for 2 weeks? Seriously Fire your "in-house" testers and get this "Public test server" done ASAP. Its blatantly obvious if you spent even 2 seconds in the training grounds with LRMs before you even step foot in a real game.

#392 hammerreborn

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

View PostOsski, on 22 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:


It's not worth noting that all the 'mechs in this demonstration die with cored center torsos and minimal damage to the rest of their frames?



THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR CLOSED BETA!

At least that's what certain people tell me everytime I note that the Jenner gets CT cored by pretty much everything in the game.

#393 TruePoindexter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 23 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Bad players are bad. This has nothing to do with LRM's. Ever see that Atlas standing on top of a hill 1200m away trying to snipe with his PPC's, and refusing to move. Hoping the opposing team will step into his line of sight?

Same thing.

Why does it seem like people separate LRM's from every other weapon system and feel like bad players using LRM's are some how different than bad players using any other weapons?


Yes bad players are of course bad. What I was saying though is that it exposes just how bad they are. At least the PPC snipers are active and have to seek out targets. The LRM boats are almost entirely useless unless someone is feeding them targets. They're literally doing nothing.

That's not to say that there aren't good LRM players - just it encourages some of the worst aspects of play especially seeing as the bugged LRM flight path is superior to the normal one but requires you to not have LOS.

I really wish missiles were made into skill shots as opposed to their current simplistic implementation. Reiterating my previous statements regarding this:


View PostTruePoindexter, on 23 May 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

Regarding missiles: I've said this several times so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself but why not make all missiles (LRMs, SRMs, and SSRMs) a skill shot. Just following the MW3 model makes the missiles much more interesting:
  • Make the missile lock difficult to acquire but last a bit after acquired - say 1 second and no longer require facing the target.
  • Missiles fire in the direction of their launcher not immediately in the direction of the target.
  • Missiles steer towards the target at a fixed turning rate and flight speed (SSRMs are the fastest and most agile, LRMs are the slowest and least agile).
  • Missile fly for specific amount of time based on their range (current LRMs hit targets @900-1000m despite the flight path actually being much longer than the 1000m range). This limits the effective range an angled shot can have. Straight shots get max range.
  • Locks do not have to be maintained - missiles are fire and forget.
In this system it wouldn't be enough to just get a lock and fire at the target. You would need to approximate a firing vector and fire in that direction. Target around a corner to the left? Fire a little to the right so the missiles round the turn. Target behind a hill? Volley at a sharp angle so the missiles steer over the hill.


#394 Lex Peregrine

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 23 May 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

I really wish missiles were made into skill shots as opposed to their current simplistic implementation.


I second!

#395 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:52 AM

LRM's require more skill than point and click weapons.

I'm sorry, I've gone over this in a ton of threads over the last 6 months.

Using bugged instances as an example is silly.

Go back to pre-patch. Which will be a fairly accurate portrayal of LRM's once the fixes go in.

It's not just target and fire. Your missiles will either hit a wall or you will lose lock causing a miss.

Indirect fire is near impossible to do properly without 2 people coordinating. So that right there is automatically more skill than any other weapon in the game.

The only really good reason to shoot indirect is actually to try and scare/supress the enemy. Which doesn't work against good players.

Now when you are firing directly, if the target has ECM. You have to keep TAG on him the whole flight or you missiles miss. Which means keeping yourself out in the open and available for return fire. While the speed buff helps, if that guy and his friends decide to shoot you, it's a problem.

If ECM is not a problem yes you can fire, and if you stay in the open Artemis helps, but when splash damage gets toned down, any player worth their salt is torso twisting your damage across 2-5 components because most mechs are unable to fire a large volley all at once.

And also, lets not ignore that due to this, everyone should be packing AMS, which if there is a group near eachother, cuts a ton of LRM fire down.

LRM's are NOT no skill weapons.

#396 Brkojle

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:53 AM

Once more guys, use more gear, lower your weapons and use equipment. Put AMS, move in group and no LRM will fall on you. When I play with friends, we all use AMSs and we are all fine.

Give PGI a break, they need to give us Alfa asap else we will never move from this stupid patches. We need something more than just fights!

#397 Dagger6T6

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:05 AM

I'm still undecided on the LRM issue so I think I need more play time to form an opinion on their current state. But I do want them to a be viable weapon because before the May 21st patch people were rarely using them and I certainly never felt the need for AMS. So hopefully the hotfix tweak that is incoming will keep them in line with other weapon systems.

#398 Mechkilla

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:25 AM

As always, one patch do all the magic (say it improved the game quite much) and then the next one screws nearly everything up.
I normally do not much complain and try to adapt. Minor balance issues or bugs .... I can live with that. Missing content or newly introduced stuff that does not work? Hey, it is a beta. Supposed to be happen. But fixes that don't fix the intended issues because no one tested it out bevor it goes live? LOL.
PGI proved again that they have at least two type of people in their staff. The bunch that code and the bunch that play. And they do not talk to each other if the implemented stuff works as intended or not. I can't explain it otherwise. Shouldn't be that hard to play a few games (by the guys that coded it) and see if the new arc is working as it should be.

Also the missed date for the long know problem of splash damage (that is the real problem: you get cored too fast). Come on ... one day? Do you really believe that the players would have made more terror (on the forum) than now if you had delayed the patch for one or two days? We know that there is a special day for new patches and it might disturbed your work flow but this borked patch did it anyway, so who cares if you just for one time changed it.

I don't know what I will do till it get fixed. Normally I don't be that type of guy that abuse such things but this time I might try it and go as LRM boat and screw up the fun of lots of others. Or I get a break ... again. Both means ... I am still not willing to stock up my depleted MCs.
BTW: the not fixed splash damage is not the only big problem ... the extrem rate of disconnects since the patch is also one. There is nearly no game when at least one is kicked out or even get in and leaves an empty place in the team. It wasn't a big issue in the last two weeks.

Don't missunderstand me: I love this game, it gave me much much fun even with all the problems that it have (and had). Nothing is perfect or will be.

#399 PictishWolf

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:44 AM

Every time it seems like they're getting their act together, they do something like this. One step forward, two steps back. I get that this is still beta but it's almost like they are trying to see what it takes to make loyal players give up on this game. This just reinforces my decision against buying any more MC. Combine this with how bored I'm getting with team deathmatch and it looks like it's time for a break, I guess.

#400 TruePoindexter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 23 May 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

LRM's require more skill than point and click weapons.

I'm sorry, I've gone over this in a ton of threads over the last 6 months.

Using bugged instances as an example is silly.

Go back to pre-patch. Which will be a fairly accurate portrayal of LRM's once the fixes go in.

It's not just target and fire. Your missiles will either hit a wall or you will lose lock causing a miss.

Indirect fire is near impossible to do properly without 2 people coordinating. So that right there is automatically more skill than any other weapon in the game.

The only really good reason to shoot indirect is actually to try and scare/supress the enemy. Which doesn't work against good players.

Now when you are firing directly, if the target has ECM. You have to keep TAG on him the whole flight or you missiles miss. Which means keeping yourself out in the open and available for return fire. While the speed buff helps, if that guy and his friends decide to shoot you, it's a problem.

If ECM is not a problem yes you can fire, and if you stay in the open Artemis helps, but when splash damage gets toned down, any player worth their salt is torso twisting your damage across 2-5 components because most mechs are unable to fire a large volley all at once.

And also, lets not ignore that due to this, everyone should be packing AMS, which if there is a group near eachother, cuts a ton of LRM fire down.

LRM's are NOT no skill weapons.


They're not no skill weapons - all weapons require some level of interaction and predetermination. They are however incredibly simplistic weapons (both LRMs and SSRMs). You acquire your lock, try to determine if the current firing position will lead to a hit, and then fire. The actual flight path however is fixed and will never vary. There's nothing left to learn or improve upon past "will it hit? ok fire." Simplicity is in most cases a good thing if it's still an interesting mechanic. I don't think we have that here and its this simplicity in flight path specifically that has been the source of all the problems. When something isn't working consistently it should be looked at to see if the approach needs to be replaced.

I also take issue with asserting that other weapons are "point and click." You have to calculate a lead in your head with any weapon that has a flight time. This is complicated as that lead point shifts whenever the target turns or changes speed making it an interesting problem. The only true "point and click" weapons are lasers which still have the interesting mechanic of requiring that they be maintained on the target for their duration.

I want to clarify the definition of "skill shot." At least to me this is a weapon that simply firing at the target will not guarantee a hit. It requires a mental calculation of a firing vector from the player in order to improve the chances of landing a hit and even then has a possibility of missing. LRMs/SSRMs do not fall into this category. The firing vectors are are fixed with the only possibility of a miss being an exceptionally fast target (LRMs vs 150kph mechs), losing a missile lock in flight., or the target being in cover (what's currently bugged).





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