59 replies to this topic

[HarmAssassin]

A weapon that generates NO heat (and is the lightest weapon in the game) should never do as much damage as a weapon that DOES generate heat.

[Deathlike]

HarmAssassin, on 23 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

A weapon that generates NO heat (and is the lightest weapon in the game) should never do as much damage as a weapon that DOES generate heat.

When heat is negligible for a small laser when you just upgrade to DHS (adding a DHS or two), the argument is kinda moot.

[Tresch]

HarmAssassin, on 23 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

A weapon that generates NO heat (and is the lightest weapon in the game) should never do as much damage as a weapon that DOES generate heat.

A single machinegun is three times the weight of a small laser. half ton for the gun, and one ton for ammo. As you add more machineguns the weight difference becomes smaller, but will never equal out, and ammo becomes more and more limited.

Furthermore, the small laser delivers the damage more effectively by doing all the damage in a short blast, rather than having to be held on the target.

Even if both weapons did exactly the same DPS, the small laser would put more of the damage on the target, and would leave the firing mech less vulnerable as they could hit-and-run.

[Helsbane]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 21 May 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

This is not a book. Nor is it the top of a table. a 50cal can penetrate an Abrams tank now days. how far in the future is this suppose to be?

I loved MG before. They are better now. Who knows what the future holds.

Utter BS on the .50 cal. penetrating an Abrams.

Helsbane, formerly with the 3rd ACR, Ft. Bliss TX.

(Now an M113, you may have a shot at.....)

[mr bear]

Ran a Jaeger with 6 MGs and 2 Large Pulse Lasers on a Standard 300 Engine with 12 DHS. 4 kills. All at point blank. Can MGs kill? Probably in conjunction with something to open up the armor.

Points:
1. You have to be insanely close to engage
2. You have to find cover and run like to heck to avoid being LRM'd/PPC'd to death moving into engagement range
3. It's fricking hilarious when you kill an Atlas with MGs...

[Aegic]

Helsbane, on 23 May 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Utter BS on the .50 cal. penetrating an Abrams.

Helsbane, formerly with the 3rd ACR, Ft. Bliss TX.

(Now an M113, you may have a shot at.....)

Glad to see someone with real experience. Although I have no IRL experience extensive study has told me they can still be immobilized with a .50 with shots to the tracks.

I also have heard of a story that during Desert Storm an Abrams was disabled and caught on fire. One of the crew did not manage to get out. Hours later allied forces were able to get back to that position and the very same crewmember was still safe inside unharmed. Thats amazing.

[Seddrik]

Ok. Everyone please read this carefully... A MG is NOT intended to be a straight up DPS stand alone weapon. If you load 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 machine guns you will in general increase your total damage but rather drop it AND lose your multi role usefulness to very limited situations. HENCE a spider could run multiple MGs and be that horrid little opportunist blowing up your ammo in that exposed arm... but you won't break any records in DPS with that many MG... you arent supposed to!

THE POINT of a MG was to damage INTERNALS in exposed parts. I use a third mouse button for my MG and ONLY when in range let it rip... I often get short bursts due to movement (mine or the opponent) but sometimes can hold a target with all movement (mine and his) for 5 or even 10 seconds depending on the situation. What I see, and enjoy is the explosions this little crit seeker brings into the equation. You guys crunching number are talking raw math dps. DONT FORGET INTERNAL EXPLOSION DAMAGE which you cannot really calculate! But now with lowered initital crits... they will be LESS often on average because now you DO have to keep holding aim on the target longer and longer to get the tertiary explosion (Crit Chance 0.11,0.06, 0.02 down from 0.14,0.08,0.03). I want the initial & secondary crit chance back to what it was! Thats where the crits came from! Thats where your opponent loses an arm, whatever guns he has in the part, plus collateral damage and grants you a huge edge in a face off! It forces opponents to play smart too... you better not leave your exposed side facing me... >: )

Vermaxx, on 22 May 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

I swapped my triple AC2 Hunch for triple MG.... Damage is still flat... ...The machine gun needs to stop being a lawl cannon, and it needs to become a cooldown weapon with a 0.5 or 0.25 second duration (depending if it does one damage or two damage per burst).

No. No. No. Go get a laser if you want a small weapon with higher dps and cool down. Thats NOT what the MG is for............. seriously. Don't turn it into a ballistic small laser. What would be the point except to kill variety...

Vermaxx, on 23 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Six machine guns (the most any mech can carry) will do a maximum of 4.8 damage in one second WITH spread AND the one second beam duration... Six small lasers will do a maximum of 18 damage in .75 seconds (or .5, I'm not sure if the wiki is current and Ohm's thread is broken) with no spread. All they suffer is heat, which is a far better tradeoff than "constant uptime."

They are not meant to be the same weapon... why MUST every weapon be identical in role, damage, etc.?

Vermaxx, on 23 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

The machine gun looks good, sounds good, and seems good from the viewpoint that "critting is awesome." The crit chance went down, and the damage per hit is still too low to disable anything in short order per bullet. You HAVE to boat machine guns to critseek. A single AC2 is better at critting than multiple machine guns based ONLY on it's rate of fire and much higher damage. Yes, an AC2 weighs six tons. It also shouldn't have such a low cooldown.

The crist got lowered... that is my point. Its PRIMARY purpose got nerfed due to complaints about insufficient over all DPS... Devs please don't do that! Leave variety in the game! Boating MGs is like boating flamers. It can be fun... or funny... but don't expect to make record kills from it. Those weapons are SPECIAL PURPOSE weapons, not intended for boating... And if you are not disabling things with machine guns, then maybe its not the weapon but the use of the weapon that is the issue? No offense intended, but some things have a specific use or role, and boating on a heavy mech just doesn't fit their main purpose. Like a light mech, you cannot go tow to toe with a heavy because you won't live long. But if you use your speed, flank, dodge, hit and run... then you can actually take that heavy down - ESPECIALLY if he is already wounded. So, should we buff all light mechs to make them equivalent to heavy mechs? No! They aren't meant to be heavy mechs...

Vermaxx, on 23 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

The small laser is vastly better than a machine gun, and it should only be marginally better. People act like the heat savings are OP. Heat savings for lower damage (and VERY explosive ammo) was the POINT of MGs in tabletop. I know they were abused in other games, but they don't have to be worthless here to avoid that.

I challenge & deny your statement that they are worthless here! I use them to great effect. In fact, on my brawlers (before the missle dominance patch) I upped my total damage by 100-300 per round by adding ONE machine gun. Go figure. I must be doing something right situationally with it. I haven't been able to get into as many brawls since the patch to see what the total average difference is since it was nerfed. : /

Vermaxx, on 23 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Let's look at it this way for context. Do the math for one ton of ballistic ammo on any gun, they're all ABOUT 150ish damage for the total shots included. A ton of machine gun ammo is 2000 rounds, which will do a total of 160 damage (DOUBLE what it used to be), AND you have to spend 200 seconds firing that ammo to produce the damage.

Now, if you think a gun that takes 3.3 minutes to produce 160 damage UNDER PERFECT CIRCUMSTANCES is anything like balanced, useful, and valid, then I cannot debate with you.

Appreciate the numbers but again this does NOT take into account the purpose of the gun. It is not intended for general DPS. It is intended for very short range, critting exposed sections and disabling... I have found it wonderfully effective for its purpose and it only takes .5 tons and ammo 1 ton... with no cool down! Wow its awesome... I can still blow up arms while my other weapons won't even fire! Devs. Please restore the former crits of the MG. Even restore the former range, thats perfectly fine by me. It is NOT supposed to be a ballistic laser. If you want another version of a MG with longer range and cool down and higher dps and less crit... then please make a DIFFERENT one, and restore this old MG to its rightful place.

Don't mess with perfection! Don't make every thing the same.

Edited by Seddrik, 24 May 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[Deathlike]

Let me know if you have an epic build for the Spider-5K that doesn't involve 4-MGs that is usable across the board.. before saying that MGs don't need anymore buffing.

[Vermaxx]

Seddrik, everything you said is opinion, so stop breaking it up like facts. The machine gun IS A BALLISTIC SMALL LASER in tabletop: one less damage, same range, no heat, direct MECH-KILLING damage instead of a stream of ineffect.

A MG properly balanced against a small laser does not kill variety - it makes the gun useful for way more players. As it stands, the gun is ONLY useful to those who actually believe it crits better than something that hits harder to begin with, which is an opinion I do not share. At the same time, it is never BETTER than a small laser and therefore balance is maintained.

The gun doesn't have to be constant-fire dakka. That was a PGI choice. The gun could fire a half-second burst for two damage, like a sensible weapon. And then, they could use the EXISTING MECHANIC OF COOLDOWN TIMERS to balance it as necessary.

This would also fix the flamer, and let it apply book damage instead of this bukkake thing it does now.

As far as some facts you mentioned, I'm not sure how adding only one MG upped your damage by anything more than 160 MAX, unless you bloat out ammo. And any gun in a game like this that is intended NOT to "damage" an enemy player but exploit someone else's work is a waste of programming. All someone has to do is take a mech with energy slots and small lasers and outshine anything you can do with a machine gun. The heat tradeoff is a non-issue. Critting is a non-issue, because I don't think we should have hitpoints. Crits should disable items in one crit, destroy them in two.

From that basis, which was a game system that made sense, every gun was a critseeker. The LBx suddenly gets AMAZING (like it should be), and missiles into exposed areas kill people.

Edited by Vermaxx, 25 May 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Asmosis]

HarmAssassin, on 23 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

A weapon that generates NO heat (and is the lightest weapon in the game) should never do as much damage as a weapon that DOES generate heat.

You mean like a gauss rifle? that's pretty comparable to similar class ballistics/lasers.

machineguns were originally just a ballistic version of small lasers, and about as effective. might as well say small lasers aren't an anti-mech weapon, holds about the same argument weight.

I like how people keep making up imaginary/theoretical scenarios for MG's when they (and all BT weapons for that matter) are designed as mech killing weapons because there were no other types of targets in BT originally. but keep trying it makes for interesting reading.

Edited by Asmosis, 25 May 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[Aegic]

Asmosis, on 25 May 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

You mean like a gauss rifle?

Not exactly. The Gauss Rifle weighs a little more than a MG and has a 90% chance to explode for 20 damage when destroyed.

[Wraith 1]

A weapon that generates NO heat has INFINITE ammunition (and is the lightest weapon in the game and doesn't explode if you hit it just right) should never do as much damage as a weapon that DOES generate heat RUNS OUT of ammunition.

Sorry, I had to.

[Seddrik]

Funny. I only gave opinions and no facts? Yet you note that straight up damage by one machine gun could only increase damage by 160... so take a wild guess at how successfully I have been using one maching gun to explode mech parts by the number range I gave.

And thats leeching off someone elses work? Wow. So... when my teammate blows a guys arm off, I am NOT supposed to use that to my advantage?


All I can say is... lol

If people cry enough to get every weapon standardized and made like every other weapon, tnen this game will get boring. "Table top" is the cry. This... isn't.... table top....

Devs please don't build crutchs into the game. The human element is what makes this a more demanding game. Leave weapons different so we have to play intelligently. Not just "Oh... no energy slots left? Let me just drop in a MG (aka a ballistic small laser, identical in range, power, heat, etc etc etc) and use it the exact same way I would a small lazer... so I don't have to think or adjust my strategy at all."

Edited by Seddrik, 25 May 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Asmosis]

Aegic, on 25 May 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Not exactly. The Gauss Rifle weighs a little more than a MG and has a 90% chance to explode for 20 damage when destroyed.

your right I totally don't see mechs getting killed with this useless weapon in every other match.

[Skribs]

I don't know, they don't seem to do a whole lot against opened components for me.

[Aegic]

Asmosis, on 26 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

your right I totally don't see mechs getting killed with this useless weapon in every other match.

I dont know what you mean by that but my comment was in reference to you quoting another comparing the gauss rifle to a machine gun. Simply because it weighs more and has risks to its use where the MG is extremely light and has minimal risk (MG ammo does negligible damage when it explodes)

Thats all!

[Deathlike]

Aegic, on 26 May 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

I dont know what you mean by that but my comment was in reference to you quoting another comparing the gauss rifle to a machine gun. Simply because it weighs more and has risks to its use where the MG is extremely light and has minimal risk (MG ammo does negligible damage when it explodes)

Thats all!

MG ammo doesn't deplete quick enough relative to other weapons... so it's actually a bigger death trap compared to other weapons.

2000 bullets @ .04 damage (don't ask why the ammo explosion damage value is not the same the current damage value of .08 damage/bullet) is 80 possible damage for 1 ton of ammo.

MGs are "supposed" to fire 10 bullets/sec (they shoot less than that, like 6-7 bullets/sec) which only means you consume .4 pts of explosive ammo damage per MG. This is painfully slow compared to 1 ton of AC or SRM ammo, which has 150 or more damage, but is dumped far quicker than MGs (you can do the math yourself).

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Aegic]

I was under the impression that MG ammo did 0.04 damage per ton for some reason. If you are right I was way off lol. Interesting. Well I always use CASE anyways haha.

[Uncleclint]

What I would love to know is how and when the crit system works. I mean, is there a difference between holding fire and short bursts? Like when im firing continously is there a crit-check every second or only when i start firing? On the other hand, what if i´m firing in short bursts, like 2-3 bursts a second? Would that mean i get 2-3 crit rolls? If it was like the latter, the MG would be devastating when it comes to internals.

[Deathlike]

Look for the thread "Crits and You" in the guides section.

MGs are very effective in removing stuff from a mech but IF AND ONLY IF the part of the mech is EXPOSED. Thus, you need a strong weapon to poke a hole in the armor before you can take advantage of it. On the other hand, if you had a real weapon (like regular medium lasers), the exposed section would be easier to shoot off altogether, doing a better job than MGs for the same effective purpose (including a chance to side core a mech that has an XL engine).