154 replies to this topic

[Sturmforge]

Honestly I think part of the problem is Speed Tweak. It throws off the balance of the construction system. Lets use 80 kph as the base. Higher than 60 tons if a mech wanted to go that fast it would have less weight than the 60 ton mech for armor and weapons because of the weight of the engine, except in the case of the XL Engine, but that has its own penalties. Speed Tweak lets you bypass that and have a faster heavy mech that competes with mediums.

Lets look at the Centurion and the Cataphract. With a 250 Engine a Centurion has 26.5 tons for weapons and armor for 81 kph. Not possible in the current game but a Cataphract would need a 350 Engine to match that giving it 27 tons for weapons and armor. Only half a ton more for a 20 ton heavier mech.

Now with Speed Tweak I can drop engine size to go just as fast. 230 Engine + 1 Required Heat Sink in the Centurion gives me 28.5 tons to play with at 82 kph. The Cataphract by comparison with a 320 Engine gives 33.5 tons for 81.5 kph, or a 325 Engine gives 32.5 tons for 82.7 kph.

Speed Tweak allows that heavier mech to be even more efficient than it should be throwing off the balance. From only having a .5 ton advantage with somewhat more Internal Structure to a 4 to 5 ton difference.

We can also look at this another way. 35 tonner versus 50 tonner at 113 kph.

35 tonner has 14.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 114.6 plus you have to add a heat sink to the chassis for 15.5 tons to use.

50 tonner has 8.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 112.3.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Mediums are limited to about 90 kmph. They usually have about 6 weapon systems total, but can only realistically run maybe 5. Their armor is just low enough to where they get nuked by everything. Not a single medium has any remarkable abilities. All except the hunchback are way, way, way, way too big, with the cent being the size of an assault mech.

There was a time when people around here said 'just you wait for the fast mediums!' Well, we got the fastest medium, and nothing changed.

The 35 ton jenner is a way better choice than all the mediums. It's faster, can actually run all six of its lasers (because they're lasers), has jets, a small profile...

[karoushi]

My cent runs 100+ so I don't know what either of you are talking about here.

Edited by karoushi, 19 May 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

karoushi, on 19 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

My cent runs 100+ so I don't know what either of you are talking about here.

That's 'about 90.'

[Taemien]

A fast medium has a niche. It can decimate lights as its quick enough to intercept them and quick enough to not let them get away. In addition it has has equal or more firepower and always more armor.

When fighting against bigger machines.. things get a little different. They can't seem to have the punch to threaten a heavier machine while keeping the speed and agility needed to stay out of their cross hairs. If a fast medium fights an assault or heavy that is loaded to the brim with weapons.. its attrition. Mediums will always lose in attrition against 16+ armor machines.

I think medium mech agility needs to be improved. If anyone has played MWLL will know what the Shadowcat is capable of will know what I am talking about. Even in that game where bigger mechs typically are better, that mech is capable of holding its own.

This won't do much at longer range engagements. I think reducing the profile a bit on Centurions and Trebuchets is a good start there, in addition to the other changes coming down the pipeline. If all that were to take place, mediums would seem like a very attractive option.

Edited by Taemien, 19 May 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Taemien, on 19 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

A fast medium has a niche. It can decimate lights as its quick enough to intercept them and quick enough to not let them get away. In addition it has has equal or more firepower and always more armor.

When fighting against bigger machines.. things get a little different. They can't seem to have the punch to threaten a heavier machine while keeping the speed and agility needed to stay out of their cross hairs. If a fast medium fights an assault or heavy that is loaded to the brim with weapons.. its attrition. Mediums will always lose in attrition against 16+ armor machines.

I think medium mech agility needs to be improved. If anyone has played MWLL will know what the Shadowcat is capable of will know what I am talking about. Even in that game where bigger mechs typically are better, that mech is capable of holding its own.

This won't do much at longer range engagements. I think reducing the profile a bit on Centurions and Trebuchets is a good start there, in addition to the other changes coming down the pipeline. If all that were to take place, mediums would seem like a very attractive option.

Except lights carry equivalent or more firepower to mediums, and are faster. Many heavies are as fast as mediums, with way way more firepower, too.

[Sturmforge]

What i was getting at is that engine weight balanced the heavies from seriously out performing mediums and Speed Tweak is throwing that off a bit.

Where a 50 tonner and a 70 tonner doing about 80 kph would be close to equal, 0.5 tons more and a little more Internal Structure. The faster you ramp up the speed the more it favors the medium due to engine weight. Speed Tweak gives a 50 tonner 2 more tons to play with at that speed while giving the 70 tonner 5 to 6 more tons to use.

Don't just look at the current chassis and their limitations. What happens when we start getting in the 80 kph 65+ ton mechs in? Not including the mechs using XL engines as they have their own penalties for using it. Speed Tweak becomes its own sort of weight reduction equipment like Endo-Steel or Ferro-Fibrous, that favors the heavier mechs.

[hammerreborn]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Except lights carry equivalent or more firepower to mediums, and are faster. Many heavies are as fast as mediums, with way way more firepower, too.

Then push for the devs to remove the weight based speed cap so there wouldn't be a reason for lights to have a mediums arsenal.

[Sturmforge]

I am not talking about mediums taking on heavies toe to toe if that heavy is slower that is just suicide. I am talking about the heavy mechs taking up the medium mech's place and making them more obsolete because the engine weight does not mean as much because of Speed Tweak.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Except lights carry equivalent or more firepower to mediums, and are faster. Many heavies are as fast as mediums, with way way more firepower, too.

It's a lost cause trying to convince people that medium mechs suck.

I mastered Centurion's, I love them to death, but any smart team mauls me in seconds.

Only time I do well is if I'm completely ignored.

98 KPH with speed tweak is not enough. I cannot disengage from battles without giving the mech I'm fighting a solid 15-20 seconds of shooting me in my back while he chases me.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 19 May 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Sturmforge]

hammerreborn, on 19 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Then push for the devs to remove the weight based speed cap so there wouldn't be a reason for lights to have a mediums arsenal.

I was thinking more of reducing it to maybe 1-3% instead of 10%. Less of a noticeable boost.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I was thinking more of reducing it to maybe 1-3% instead of 10%. Less of a noticeable boost.

I'm not talking about speed boost. I'm talking about engine limits and the soft speed cap.

Remove those and role warfare really begins to pick up.

Some Jenners wouldn't use 6 medium lasers if we could up the engine. The current engine limitations basically is just a weight cap on every light, like internal structure. No matter what it's class tonnage - ( a 300/295/whatever spiders/commandos use engines worth of weight) - internals - maxish ff armor - ECM/JJ = weapons

If the engine limit was removed there would be Jenners with max engines running TAG and a medium laser.

[Khanublikhan]

I was musing to myself earlier. Mathematically speaking, two 50-ton medium mechs should be the equal of one 100-ton assault. In practice, the assault will wipe (I think) wipe the floor with them.

• An assault mech has the hard points for 4,5, 6 or more hard hitting weapon systems.
  
• An assault mech has the internal structure and armour in TT advantage.
  
• MWO doubled armour values.
  
• As a general rule, Medium mechs lack any real speed advantage.
  
• Mediums are too big.

During the course of a fight a heavier mech will weaken, dismember, disarm a smaller opponent - putting any smaller mech at a disadvantage. The hardpoint weapons on a medium are more valuable - the mech suffers more for their loss.

I am not sure how you would fix this under the paradigm of accurate fire. Possibly break with canon and consider giving all mediums extra hardpoints. Effectively turning them into gunboats.

[Deathlike]

Speed Tweak is not the problem... it's engine limits for mediums on the whole (minus the Cicada) is the problem.

On average (give or take 1 kph) the speed of the various classes look like this:
Assaults - 60kph (66kph w/tweak) - exception being the 9M/PB
Heavies - 78kph (85.8kph w/tweak) - exception being the Dragon (honorary medium)
Mediums - ~89kph (97.9kph w/tweak) - exception being the Cicada (honorary light), and 2 speed medium variants (Cent-D/Trebuchet-3C) - difficult to compare all 3 meds
Lights - 135+kph (148.kph w/tweak) - exception being the Raven-2X/4X

Although class speed is impossible to compare directly, you would think there should be a bigger gap between mediums and heavies... where it should be closer to 100kph than it is to 90kph. Speed tweak is really not the problem.

[Sturmforge]

Just so I don't get misunderstood. I don't think a medium should be able to stand up to a heavier mech. I am talking about things like heavy mechs becoming harassers and such which is a mediums and lighter job. If a heavy mech wants to keep up with a medium it should have to make a sacrifice such as use an XL engine.

hammerreborn, on 19 May 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I'm not talking about speed boost. I'm talking about engine limits and the soft speed cap.

Remove those and role warfare really begins to pick up.

Some Jenners wouldn't use 6 medium lasers if we could up the engine. The current engine limitations basically is just a weight cap on every light, like internal structure. No matter what it's class tonnage - ( a 300/295/whatever spiders/commandos use engines worth of weight) - internals - maxish ff armor - ECM/JJ = weapons

If the engine limit was removed there would be Jenners with max engines running TAG and a medium laser.

I pretty much agree with this. Problem I was getting at with Speed Tweak has to do with mediums taking a lights job also when there was not an engine cap.

[karoushi]

@ post above ~ mediums are probably intended to be anti-light mechs, anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

That's 'about 90.'

113 is not about 90, 93 or 94 is about 90.
Don't try to sneak clever little posts on me I'm onto you Vas!

Edited by karoushi, 19 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Sturmforge]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Speed Tweak is not the problem... it's engine limits for mediums on the whole (minus the Cicada) is the problem.

On average (give or take 1 kph) the speed of the various classes look like this:
Assaults - 60kph (66kph w/tweak) - exception being the 9M/PB
Heavies - 78kph (85.8kph w/tweak) - exception being the Dragon (honorary medium)
Mediums - ~89kph (97.9kph w/tweak) - exception being the Cicada (honorary light), and 2 speed medium variants (Cent-D/Trebuchet-3C) - difficult to compare all 3 meds
Lights - 135+kph (148.kph w/tweak) - exception being the Raven-2X/4X

Although class speed is impossible to compare directly, you would think there should be a bigger gap between mediums and heavies... where it should be closer to 100kph than it is to 90kph. Speed tweak is really not the problem.

I think it is somewhat because it becomes a sort of weight reduction such as Endo, Ferro, or XL engine but with no downside. Look at your Awesome for example. How much weight do you gain if you decide to drop your engine to stay at 60 kph instead of just boosting current engine to 66kph with the tweak? You gain 4.5 tons though you lose the ability to place 2 heat sinks in the engine. The lose of engine heat sinks is not true with all engine reductions like that though.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just so I don't get misunderstood. I don't think a medium should be able to stand up to a heavier mech. I am talking about things like heavy mechs becoming harassers and such which is a mediums and lighter job. If a heavy mech wants to keep up with a medium it should have to make a sacrifice such as use an XL engine.



I pretty much agree with this. Problem I was getting at with Speed Tweak has to do with mediums taking a lights job also when there was not an engine cap.

Mediums shouldn't be able to stand up to heavies, but they should be able to carry as much firepower as a heavy, or be as fast as a light.

They currently don't do either, so the 'workhorse class' is worthless.

[Stokes52]

Medium mechs are the jack-of-all trade mechs. They are good in almost all situations but excel at none of them. I think this is fine. Personally, mediums are my favorite to pilot.

They aren't quite as fast as lights, but they have have more armor and firepower. On the other hand, they have nowhere near as much firepower and armor as an assault, but they have much more speed and maneuverability. The advantage of the medium is that it can quickly move to different areas of the battlefield, which means that a fast medium is a force multiplier. It can quickly get to a weak flank and support any assaults that are camping a portion of the battlefield while the rest of the lance catches up.

I think I'd be okay with some medium mechs being made slightly smaller, but on the whole, they serve their role perfectly fine. It's not uncommon for myself and many other medium pilots to top the scoreboards on occasion.

[Sephlock]

Because both mediums and heavies are in the "middle" so to speak, and, well...