55 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Kymlaar, on 22 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

This weapon suffers from a common issue in games. Games have this idea that shotguns in real life have a massive spread, but if this were true they wouldn't be very effective hunting weapons. As an example, some hunting shotguns on full choke have a spread of 40 inches (101.6 cm) at a range of 40 yards (36.6 meters).

In fairness... I did originally qualify it as a "sawed-off shotgun".

Most "non-sawed-off" shotguns are zero choke, which gives them a viable pattern efficiency <20 yards. While a full or extra full choke would give a viable pattern efficiency out to 40+ yards.

A sawed-off shotgun with virtually no length of barrel would half that effective rage for a viable pattern efficiency. (<10 yards)

What PGI has given us is a sawed-off shotgun...

[EvilCow]

The problem is that LBX does "at best" the same damage that the AC does normally. It should have some advantage when all pellets hits, this critical hits thing does not pay.

Possible solutions could be an increased overall damage, +20% for example, or add a (lower) chance to crit even when armor is still in place, rationalize it with pellets hitting barrels, vent ports, gaps between armor plates, laser lens, missile warheads or other weak spots (this would give an increased meaning also to those missile ports that I always forget to open).

Of course it should also have its "normal" mode it is supposed to have.

Edited by EvilCow, 22 May 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Victor Morson]

DaZur, on 22 May 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I use it on my "Balanced-Phract" (ERPPC, 4xMLas, LBX/10) and I finally feel like it's delivering the intended up-close "slap-down" it's was intended to be.

That Phract makes me cry.

[Victor Morson]

Kymlaar, on 22 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

This weapon suffers from a common issue in games. Games have this idea that shotguns in real life have a massive spread, but if this were true they wouldn't be very effective hunting weapons. As an example, some hunting shotguns on full choke have a spread of 40 inches (101.6 cm) at a range of 40 yards (36.6 meters).

Assuming a conical spread pattern, and expanding this to Mechwarrior ranges, I would expect a spread of 14.98 meters at a range of 540 meters from this weapon. Putting that in terms of mechs in the game, that spread would cover a a catapult top to bottom completely, with waste on the sides.



(image source)

I believe the spread we have currently is much larger than that. To use the example above concerning the commando at 200 meters, we would expect a spread at 200 meters of 5.548 meters, which should easily fit within the torso area of the commando.

Basically, I feel that right now we're seeing spread that is much too large, and limits the effective range of a weapon which could be useful for snap shots and crit-seeking. This is a common trend in games, and I wish that it's one that would not persist.

What we need to do with LBX is stop making them a shotgun. Just because they were a shotgun in MW4 and MW:LL doesn't mean they need to be a shotgun here.

What I'd like LBX to be, in fact, is an air burst weapon. When the shell nears the target, it explodes, and peppers them randomly with the damage.

That'd be far and away closer to how they operate in Battletech. If the air burst is a shaped charge (forward arc) instead of circular burst, this would effectively provide an AC/10 with superior range (from the extra burst distance, as shells could explode at max range), that's also better at doing damage all over it's victims.

I think as long as it's a shotgun, the way MW:O works, it's probably never going to live up to potential. I won't even mention the LBX/2 and LBX/5 that are coming out soon and are so bad - even Clan versions, which will appear first - many games didn't even bother including them.

However if they were airbursting to offer the shotgun effect at any range, they could suddenly find a new lease on life.

[Xoxim SC]

Belorion, on 22 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

You don't want the spread to be too tight... then its just an AC-10.

I don't know about you guys, but I like mine tight.

Wait.... What are we talking about again?

[General Taskeen]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

What we need to do with LBX is stop making them a shotgun. Just because they were a shotgun in MW4 and MW:LL doesn't mean they need to be a shotgun here.

But, all the pellets hit a target at its enhanced range in MW:LL and the pellets do a ton of damage. It is a high burst, slow firing long-range weapon in MW:LL. I don't see why they don't just copy its function into this game, because it just "worked."

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 May 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Lostdragon]

General Taskeen, on 22 May 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

But, all the pellets hit a target at its enhanced range in MW:LL and the pellets do a ton of damage. It is a high burst, slow firing long-range weapon in MW:LL. I don't see why they don't just copy its function into this game, because it just &quot;worked.&quot;

If they can't/won't give it slugs soon this is about the only way to make it a good weapon choice other than maybe doubling damage per pellet.

[Soy]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

What we need to do with LBX is stop making them a shotgun.

Fail. It's ******* epic. It's the one gun in the game that feels like, you know, a gun. And not some sort of pewpewzapzap laz0r, or a naval cannon.

If anything, ANYTHING at all, the shotgun feel of the LBX is the saving grace. I wouldn't bother with this wep if it didn't feel so manly when firing.

[DaZur]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

That Phract makes me cry.

Is this a "good cry" or a bad cry"?... DAMMIT MAN, you're making no sense!

[Zyllos]

LBX is not a "shotgun". It's a more advanced AC/10 that allows for flak shots for destroying internal equipment at extreme ranges or standard slug rounds like the AC/10.

The problem with this is that PGI wants every weapon to be viable. So they enforce the flak rounds only part of the LBX/10 so that people will use the AC/10. But then if you tighten up the spray to be able to utilize the full optimal range, players will just go back to the LBX/10 due to the weight savings.

If they want the LBX/10 to be a dumb shotgun, what are they doing to do about the LBX/2, with it being the furthest ranged weapon in the game?

Edited by Zyllos, 22 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[LordBraxton]

Kymlaar, on 22 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

This weapon suffers from a common issue in games. Games have this idea that shotguns in real life have a massive spread, but if this were true they wouldn't be very effective hunting weapons. As an example, some hunting shotguns on full choke have a spread of 40 inches (101.6 cm) at a range of 40 yards (36.6 meters).

Assuming a conical spread pattern, and expanding this to Mechwarrior ranges, I would expect a spread of 14.98 meters at a range of 540 meters from this weapon. Putting that in terms of mechs in the game, that spread would cover a a catapult top to bottom completely, with waste on the sides.



(image source)

I believe the spread we have currently is much larger than that. To use the example above concerning the commando at 200 meters, we would expect a spread at 200 meters of 5.548 meters, which should easily fit within the torso area of the commando.

Basically, I feel that right now we're seeing spread that is much too large, and limits the effective range of a weapon which could be useful for snap shots and crit-seeking. This is a common trend in games, and I wish that it's one that would not persist.

Spot on, LOVE the rescale chart as well. IF ONLY

since we will likely never see slug ammunition, the LBX should be pretty pinpoint tight up to about 270m, and spread out all over an atlas by 540

[Monky]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

What we need to do with LBX is stop making them a shotgun. Just because they were a shotgun in MW4 and MW:LL doesn't mean they need to be a shotgun here.

What I'd like LBX to be, in fact, is an air burst weapon. When the shell nears the target, it explodes, and peppers them randomly with the damage.

That'd be far and away closer to how they operate in Battletech. If the air burst is a shaped charge (forward arc) instead of circular burst, this would effectively provide an AC/10 with superior range (from the extra burst distance, as shells could explode at max range), that's also better at doing damage all over it's victims.

I think as long as it's a shotgun, the way MW:O works, it's probably never going to live up to potential. I won't even mention the LBX/2 and LBX/5 that are coming out soon and are so bad - even Clan versions, which will appear first - many games didn't even bother including them.

However if they were airbursting to offer the shotgun effect at any range, they could suddenly find a new lease on life.

Yes please.

[Svalfangr]

Zyllos, on 22 May 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

LBX is not a "shotgun". It's a more advanced AC/10 that allows for flak shots for destroying internal equipment at extreme ranges or standard slug rounds like the AC/10.

The problem with this is that PGI wants every weapon to be viable. So they enforce the flak rounds only part of the LBX/10 so that people will use the AC/10. But then if you tighten up the spray to be able to utilize the full optimal range, players will just go back to the LBX/10 due to the weight savings.

If they want the LBX/10 to be a dumb shotgun, what are they doing to do about the LBX/2, with it being the furthest ranged weapon in the game?

LBX-2 is also a shotgun fyi

[Sug]

Zyllos, on 22 May 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

The problem with this is that PGI wants every weapon to be viable. So they enforce the flak rounds only part of the LBX/10 so that people will use the AC/10. But then if you tighten up the spray to be able to utilize the full optimal range, players will just go back to the LBX/10 due to the weight savings.

Devs have said many times that being able to switch from solid to cluster on LBX and implementing special ammo for ACs is something they are working on.

It's too bad the SRM6 is such a better LBX10 than the LBX10. SRMs, SSRMs, LBXs need a solid reworking imo.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Belorion, on 22 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

You don't want the spread to be too tight... then its just an AC-10.

It should be an AC-10, but better. The AC-10 was underpowered on the TT, so that's why they added the LB-10X with slugs and cluster ammo. The AC-5 was UP as well, so they added the UAC-5. When Ultra and LB-X versions of the other AC classes came in, it rendered stock ACs entirely redundant.

MWO not being TT means that, lacking special ammo, they need to make LB-10X ACs, Ultra ACs, and standard ACs all viable. The place to do this is to add a distinct role for each AC, much like the way to balance mechs is to give each one a different role at which it excels.

Since they're not gonna add slugs for the LB-10X any time soon, they are eliminating one of the main advantages of the LB-X line over the standard ACs - range. The on-paper range of the LB-10X is longer than the standard AC-10, but the useful range is way shorter. This means that they need to buff it pretty drastically in other respects to have it match the performance of a weapon it ought by rights to surpass in all areas.

How can they do this? The easiest way would be to increase per-pellet damage. 1.5 seems like an OK starting point. It'd become very dangerous up close (15 damage), and would be less useless at range (only hit by three pellets means only 3 damage currently; it'd be 4.5 with buffed per-pellet damage). They've already made the impulse very high, so it does stand out as the best weapon for knocking your enemy around, but they could make the impulse scale by the number of pellets that hit (for example, 1 pellet is the same as an AC2, 10 is a whole lot more impulse).

The LB-10X would still not be able to take meaningful advantage of its boosted range, then, but it'd be a lot more dangerous up close and would lose slightly less performance as the range increases. The AC-10 would remain the concentrated damage option.

[Roland]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

What we need to do with LBX is stop making them a shotgun. Just because they were a shotgun in MW4 and MW:LL doesn't mean they need to be a shotgun here.
...
I think as long as it's a shotgun, the way MW:O works, it's probably never going to live up to potential.

I gotta disagree with you Victor, but instead of just shouting, "**** NOOBZOR!" I'll explain where I'm coming from.

I think the idea of a shotgun for the LBX is actually very good. It makes it different, which is good for the game. This isn't to suggest that your suggestion of an airburst weapon wouldn't also be different, but I think that we can make the LBX into a useful weapon with the current mechanics, and a few minor changes.

First, I of course agree that the LBX10 is trash as it exists currently.

Second, the idea that narrowing the spread on the LBX 10 will improve it, is obviously false on its face. How can you tell? Because even if you narrowed it COMPLETELY to zero spread, then it'd just be a slightly better AC10.... at which point you eliminate the AC10 (which wouldn't be hard, since it's already a bad weapon).

However, by using a shotgun effect, WITH a spread (a significant spread, akin to what we have currently in fact), but increasing the damage per pellet, you then have a new weapon which is useful within a specific niche.

With spread, but higher damage per pellet, then you have a weapon which will dramatically change in damage potential (and usage) depending on range.

Imagine, for instance, you make the damage 1.5 per pellet. At point blank range, the spread is so narrow that it is effectively equivalent to a gauss rifle shot since all pellets hit the same target. But as you move further out, you quickly lose that focus and it starts spreading damage around.

So with those stats, you have a weapon which is, at point blank range, equivalent to a gauss rifle.. only that weighs significantly less, takes up fewer critical slots, and doesn't explode. But at longer range it's not nearly as useful for point damage.. although it then takes up some use as a light-swatter. Most of the pellets won't hit a light mech due to the spread, but those that do will result in perhaps non-trivial damage.

In this way, you can make an LBX which is actually useful as a "kick-you in the teeth infighter" weapon. If you can get real close, you can be rewarded with a large amount of damage... and this means that using it as a scatter gun at range is also viable, since you're not sacrificing your ability to do large damage by getting close.

And all they need to do to enable this, is jack up the damage.

As I said, I think 1.5 damage per pellet is a good start, with the current spread. Maybe even revert to the prior spread pattern.

It may require pushing the damage up to 2 per pellet, but I suspect that even at 1.5 you'll start seeing folks fielding this weapon.

The key for it will be that at AC20 range, you need to have a spread which will not put everything on a single panel like an AC20 shell. So, by 300m, the shot should already have some non-trivial spread.

[Victor Morson]

General Taskeen, on 22 May 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

But, all the pellets hit a target at its enhanced range in MW:LL and the pellets do a ton of damage. It is a high burst, slow firing long-range weapon in MW:LL. I don't see why they don't just copy its function into this game, because it just "worked."

When did that happen?

Last time I played MWLL it was a shotgun that only worked well up close.

[Keifomofutu]

DaZur, on 22 May 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

[/size]
In fairness... I did originally qualify it as a "sawed-off shotgun".

Most "non-sawed-off" shotguns are zero choke, which gives them a viable pattern efficiency <20 yards. While a full or extra full choke would give a viable pattern efficiency out to 40+ yards.

A sawed-off shotgun with virtually no length of barrel would half that effective rage for a viable pattern efficiency. (<10 yards)

What PGI has given us is a sawed-off shotgun...

False sawed off shotguns have damage. There is a reason when you sacrifice all range on a gun for spread every game ever makes them more dangerous up close than their long range equivalents. Except MWO of course where -1ton -1crit is supposed to make up for both spreading your damage at normal ranges and losing all usefulness at 540meters. As it stands an ac10 is always better.

[Soy]

Stop theorycrafting and play the game. LBX is 10x more fun than an AC/10. END OF! ^^

[Zaptruder]

Still a crappy weapon. Better, like the MGs, but still bottom tier.

A good fix would be to bump the pellet damage to 1.5. Then tighten up the spread a tad more.

So you get a weapon that underperforms at long range, is ok at medium and devastating up close.

This is a good way of differentiating the functionality of the LB10-X from other weapons in the game in its behaviour, and provides another useful tool for players to ponder.

Otherwise, it's simply a weapon system that has had development time and effort expended and will continue to need maintenance in the future (through the need to create new LB10-X weapon meshes for every ballistic slot that can fit it), that continues to go underutilized by players... Because it simply doesn't present an interesting/viable tactical option for the tonnage and criticals it takes.