148 replies to this topic

[I am]

Slightly overpowered, or dramatically overpowered, weapon system

+

multiple alike weapon systems of that ype on one team

+

experienced players grouping together in four man teams

+

small community thus reducing liklihood solo players will drop against other solo players

+

modules and experience upgrades which benefit those with greater time invested

=

MWO, or in other words, a shhit sandwich for lone wolves, and ageneral feeling the game lacks balance

(See its not just the LRMs, or the 4 mans, or the boating, or the lack of sizable community necessary for effective match making, nor is it the new versus experienced players. It's all of them, working in conjunction, exaserbating one another. Changing a single one, will not likely change the result of their aggregate impact on MWO.)

Note: Some substantial personal changes can be made, for example, switching from the bad weapon systems to the good ones, or abstaining from droppping solo and teaming up.

Note: A single solo player, of exceptional skill, can overcome all of these factors working against them.

Result: Small community stays small, the collective factors contributing to balance frustrate efforts to change one thing and substantially impact the outcome (balancing weapons), and thus things remain largely the same as they have since MWO's inception.

Example: Changes to prevent boating? Would still only address part of the issue, and not result in the meta changing phenomenon that many would like it to.

Example: why do you think the player counter is hidden?

Suggested Solution: Return to open beta. Make substantial changes in all of the above areas, ONE AT A TIME, and re-release into open beta after substantial changes have been made.

Reality: Won't happen. This ship is going forward, whether that be sailing with pride, or limping along held together by duct tape.

Morale: Don't set your expectations too high, and don't expect things to "change" for the better.

[MaddMaxx]

verybad, on 22 May 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

OMG, Gausscatss RUIN the game
OMG, fast Medium laser mechs RUIN the game
OMG, Jenners RUIN the game!
OMG LRMs RUIN the game
OMG ECM RUINS the game
OMG Raven 3ls RUIN the game
OMG, POPtartss RUIN the game
OMG, LRMs RUIN the game

Damn, if that keeps up a TREND may develop that the Devs can use to help assist them in their decision making process. NOT! LOL

[MaddMaxx]

I am, on 23 May 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Slightly overpowered, or dramatically overpowered, weapon system

+

multiple alike weapon systems of that ype on one team

+

experienced players grouping together in four man teams

+

small community thus reducing liklihood solo players will drop against other solo players

+

modules and experience upgrades which benefit those with greater time invested

=

MWO, or in other words, a shhit sandwich for lone wolves, and ageneral feeling the game lacks balance

(See its not just the LRMs, or the 4 mans, or the boating, or the lack of sizable community necessary for effective match making, nor is it the new versus experienced players. It's all of them, working in conjunction, exaserbating one another. Changing a single one, will not likely change the result of their aggregate impact on MWO.)

Note: Some substantial personal changes can be made, for example, switching from the bad weapon systems to the good ones, or abstaining from droppping solo and teaming up.

Note: A single solo player, of exceptional skill, can overcome all of these factors working against them.

Result: Small community stays small, the collective factors contributing to balance frustrate efforts to change one thing and substantially impact the outcome (balancing weapons), and thus things remain largely the same as they have since MWO's inception.

Example: Changes to prevent boating? Would still only address part of the issue, and not result in the meta changing phenomenon that many would like it to.

Example: why do you think the player counter is hidden?

Suggested Solution: Return to open beta. Make substantial changes in all of the above areas, ONE AT A TIME, and re-release into open beta after substantial changes have been made.

Reality: Won't happen. This ship is going forward, whether that be sailing with pride, or limping along held together by duct tape.

Morale: Don't set your expectations too high, and don't expect things to "change" for the better.

Wow, that is alot of Supposition for one POST. Perhaps you could have prefaced it with "IMO". Would have read way better.

[Ozric]

Appogee, on 23 May 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

What do you consider to be the correct way to use LRMs?

As you asked, I believe that correct missile usage revolves around the obscure art of the firing solution. You can not just point and click like you can with other weapons, you have to get your positioning right, thinking a few steps ahead of the enemies position, and have a good understanding of the maps and their idiosyncrasy's to make every salvo count.

Spamming missiles at anything you can target will only ever get you a good score by accident, and it's the first thing that every good rocket jock learns not to do. Anyone who uses the phrase to describe the role has his wires crossed somewhere and therefore so has the rest of his argument.

[Knight_Invictus]

LRMs were not effective recently. This needed to be fixed, made more effective . This current patch went a bit too far. Needs to be dialed back. That being said the Gause and other long range energy weapons were too strong. I have been critted far too often by one shot at very long range, occasionally head killed by one shot, annoying! LRM, help balance the overall long range battle space. MWO is great despite these issues!

Knight4Him

[Hotthedd]

Knight4Him, on 23 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

LRMs were not effective recently. This needed to be fixed, made more effective . This current patch went a bit too far. Needs to be dialed back. That being said the Gause and other long range energy weapons were too strong. I have been critted far too often by one shot at very long range, occasionally head killed by one shot, annoying! LRM, help balance the overall long range battle space. MWO is great despite these issues!

Knight4Him

One SALVO, not one shot. There is no long range weapon that can strip 18+ armor off with one shot. The problem you have is one of convergence, which also needs to be fixed.

[Jazzbandit1313]

The big problem here is missles are absolutely un-dodgeable now. huge arc

[Bloody Moon]

Jazzbandit1313, on 23 May 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

The big problem here is missles are absolutely un-dodgeable now. huge arc

More difficult? Sure.
Impossible? Hell no!

Worst map against LRMs aside from Alpine.
No LRMs mounted on my mech obviously and no, not using the cookie-cutter Gauss+2PPC build.
5 mechs mounting 2 LRM15s or more on the enemy side.

[Renthrak]

I've come up with an idea for spreading LRM damage without losing accuracy or relying on splash:

http://mwomercs.com/...eeking-to-lrms/

[Chrithu]

Agreed. Just to have a first person look at it I put some LRMs in my Highlander and was shocked to see that they're at least as efficient as prior to their first nerf during closed beta.

I agree with the OP that a new approach at balancing is needed as fiddling around with damage makes them either unviable on a per volley basis and thus unviable at all or you put viable damage at them and then the pure number of volleys that specialised builds can spit out makes them extremely powerful. So reducing the number of rockets per ton of ammo and thus effectively reducing the number of volleys that can be shot per match could be a way to solve the problem.

[LordBraxton]

Make the Arc MUCH MUCH lower.

They can keep the tight spread and damage IDC

they go over way too much of the ingame cover

right now everyone hides behind the largest hill they can find

[Appogee]

Ozric, on 23 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I believe that correct missile usage revolves around the obscure art of the firing solution. You can not just point and click like you can with other weapons, you have to get your positioning right, thinking a few steps ahead of the enemies position, and have a good understanding of the maps and their idiosyncrasy's to make every salvo count. Spamming missiles at anything you can target will only ever get you a good score by accident, and it's the first thing that every good rocket jock learns not to do.

The skill you just described applies to any MechWarrior fighting with any weapon.

PPC or laser users also need to watch where enemies head, aim at the point they're going to emerge from cover, and use their knowledge of the map for superior positioning.

But unlike LRM users, PPC users also need to lead a moving target, and laser users need to maintain track on a moving target... which takes a lot of skill. An LRM user barely needs to aim, beyond hovering a mouse somewhere over a huge target bracket, and never needs to lead or track a target, because guided munitions do that work for them.

Further, PPC or laser users can't take a shot from behind cover. And they can't hit anything behind cover, like LRM users can.

So while I accept that a ''skilled'' LRM user will score more points than an unskilled one, that doesn't mean LRMs require any unique skill. In fact, users of other weapons clearly require more skill.

Finally, an unskilled LRM user spamming locked-on LRMs from behind cover is still able to rack up a reasonable score and kills. (I've been watching them do it in spectator mode for three days now.) A PPC or laser user hiding behind a rock scores nothing.

Edited by Appogee, 23 May 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Hotthedd, on 22 May 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Nope. I was even killing peeps behind the 3 line ridge, and the eastern ridge (near kappa). There is nowhere to hide on that map and actually advance into battle.


When 1 salvo is 55 missiles you certainly can.

I am more than able to close with the other team on Caustic even with current LRM mechanics. Ate LRM's a few times to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but most matches I died in the brawl, not to LRM's.

So this line that "there is nowhere to hide" on Caustic is complete bubkis.

[Hotthedd]

Kraven Kor, on 23 May 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

I am more than able to close with the other team on Caustic even with current LRM mechanics. Ate LRM's a few times to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but most matches I died in the brawl, not to LRM's.

So this line that "there is nowhere to hide" on Caustic is complete bubkis.

Before the flight path change, the 3 line ridge, the kappa ridge, and the rim of the caldera provided adequate cover from LRMs and snipers.

Now, if the LRM boat has a spotter, they don't.

I am not trying to argue, the simple fact is that they just don't work anymore.

I am not even refuting you when you say you were able to advance, you just cannot use the terrain to shield you from LRMs anymore. And in the games I used for examples, YES, most of the enemy died in the brawl. I never claimed I got 8 kills.

[Sheraf]

Hotthedd, on 23 May 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Before the flight path change, the 3 line ridge, the kappa ridge, and the rim of the caldera provided adequate cover from LRMs and snipers.

Now, if the LRM boat has a spotter, they don't.

I am not trying to argue, the simple fact is that they just don't work anymore.

I am not even refuting you when you say you were able to advance, you just cannot use the terrain to shield you from LRMs anymore. And in the games I used for examples, YES, most of the enemy died in the brawl. I never claimed I got 8 kills.

Those cover allow you to shrug the lock off if they don't have spotter, try to lead the LRM to one way then walk other way behind cover as they lose lock

[Stormfury]

verybad, on 22 May 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

OMG, Gausscatss RUIN the game
OMG, fast Medium laser mechs RUIN the game
OMG, Jenners RUIN the game!
OMG LRMs RUIN the game
OMG ECM RUINS the game
OMG Raven 3ls RUIN the game
OMG, POPtartss RUIN the game
OMG, LRMs RUIN the game

You forgot one.

OMG, PGI RUIN the game!

[Stoicblitzer]

Yaaaaa so balance changes every month or so depending on the QQ PGI experiences. Something seems to be missing. Maybe in-game VOIP and VOIP'd lobbies would help balance?

You click Launch and the matchmaker puts you into a lobby (based on elo, blah blah) where everyone can see what mech everyone is taking and you can change which mech you want to take before the match. This would enable people to choose counters based on what they think someone will equip on their chosen mech. If I see a HGN-732, I will assume jump sniper and chat with my team. "Should we bring a HGN jump sniper or STK PPC boat also to counter him?" People might guess wrong which could produce interesting results. Maybe institute class matching in the lobby. At the top of the lobby, have a weight class counter which shows how many of each class each team has "A-3, H-1, M-2, L-2." When these counters are equal, a timer counts down and then you launch. People can break the timer by switching mech. Some benefits of this: Teamwork begins before the game starts, instant class matching, incorporation of an elo element helps keep skill a factor, and perceived "counters" can be chosen before a match resulting in less 8-0 roflstomps.

There can be a votekick system to curb any trolling/abuse like people who would keep switching mechs thus not allowing the timer to count down, AFKs who aren't participating thus preventing the game from being played, people who can't read, etc. People who are kicked are replaced by the MM. This lobby system combined with in-game VOIP would also allow PGI to eliminate the segregation of 8mans and include 5-7mans like in CB. 5+ mans would have little advantage over pugs/2-4mans if everyone knows what mechs everyone is taking, both sides have VOIP, classes are matched, and elo is taken into account.

An issue I foresee is people taking a long time to change their mech loadout to accommodate what they think an enemy is bringing to the battle. If PGI EVER introduces a "strip mech" button and a "quick loadout" dropdown box where you have preconfigured loadouts already ready, this could alleviate the lobby wait times.

tl;dr: don't worry this will never happen, so you didn't miss anything.

[Joseph Mallan]

Akulakhan, on 22 May 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

I think you're confused. You actually have to AIM all those things. And they won't go up and over walls and buildings.

Poptarting is boring ( I haven't taken out my Cataphract since like, February) but LRMs are just so fail when a game should be skill-based it's stomach-turning. When you know there's a handful of players on both teams doing nothing but standing still with their mouths open hitting the left mouse button and having their missiles arc over creation, how can you say this meta is any better?

Insta-convergence PPCs were not very hard, but they at least took 3 brain cells to use correctly. I'm not sure LRM's even take two.

Direct fire weapons=Point Click
Indirect fire weapons=Point Click & Follow
Streaks=Point Click and stay in range

The intelligence curve to this game is not really that high. Please don't fool yourself into thinking Lasers and ACs take any more degree of skill than Missiles. They don't.

[Kaspirikay]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons=Point Click
Indirect fire weapons=Point Click & Follow
Streaks=Point Click and stay in range

The intelligence curve to this game is not really that high. Please don't fool yourself into thinking Lasers and ACs take any more degree of skill than Missiles. They don't.

This

[Stoicblitzer]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons=Point Click
Indirect fire weapons=Point Click & Follow
Streaks=Point Click and stay in range

The intelligence curve to this game is not really that high. Please don't fool yourself into thinking Lasers and ACs take any more degree of skill than Missiles. They don't.

Kaspirikay, on 24 May 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

This

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 24 May 2013 - 07:56 AM.