69 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

I'm game to try it, if they group in 5 missile sets. Otherwise you kill LRM5/10 packs. And this is from an avid LRM player, who currently thinks they're in a decent spot. This will push LRMs into a support damage role, with which I'm okay.

At the worst, it's bad, and they revert to what we have the following patch.

I will also add that in most cases I feel like the legs shouldn't be targeted. LRM's have enough other penalties to hit that they don't need a straight nerf where a moving mech is going to avoid damage for free as they attempt and fail to home in on a low/hidden target from a high arc. Again, I don't mind testing to see if it works, but I doubt it will, and I feel that the idea of dropping legs as targets should be at least on the table in terms of balance.

Edited by Prezimonto, 25 July 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

Something about this doesn't make sense to me for an area affect weapon; it should just be a mass of missiles falling on your general location with only limited targeting.

Right now, I feel like missiles hit in relation to your speed, twist at the moment of missile impact, and angle to the LRM dispersal unit.

Another-words, all of those pictures the OP shows, is a straight look-at-my-lerm-tubes stance and does not depict at all what I see LRM's do in the field, unless the receiver is looking-at-those-lerm-tubes.

This idea would just make LRM big giant SSRMS with longer range; just doesn't feel right.

[ManDaisy]

Honestly LRM's are just about right. There should be no last minute tracking to screw with their grouping, as they are behaving as normal missiles would right now coming down as a cluster.

Edited by ManDaisy, 25 July 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Goose]

What percentage of "observed LRM behavior" is actually "observed fully tricked-out LRM behavior?"

[Renthrak]

Aphoticus, on 25 July 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Something about this doesn't make sense to me for an area affect weapon; it should just be a mass of missiles falling on your general location with only limited targeting.

ManDaisy, on 25 July 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

There should be no last minute tracking to screw with their grouping, as they are behaving as normal missiles would right now coming down as a cluster.

I'm not sure how 'normal missiles' would behave, because we generally don't see guided missiles travel close together, and rockets are usually fired one at a time also. I would expect tightly packed missiles to collide and interfere with the guidance fins, or get scorched by the exhaust gasses, etc. Putting that aside, there is a more relevant issue.

It really comes down to another case where the fidelity of the simulation may need to be sacrificed for the sake of improving the game.

The basic idea of LRMs would be that they come down in a circular area, centered on the target. They could either be evenly distributed in that circle, or concentrated towards the center with fewer missiles around the edge. This seems to make logical sense, but in the case of MWO, there is a critical flaw: the largest object within that circle will always be the torso of the target.

Consequently, the practical result is that regardless of apparent distribution within the area of effect, the majority of the missiles will hit the Center Torso armor location, followed by the Left Torso and Right Torso, with a handful hitting the limbs. This is no different than having all missiles track to the Center Torso, exactly the way that Streak SRMs were earlier in Beta.

I generally view LRMs as a 'pepper my target with damage' weapon, one that is virtually certain to cause damage to my target, and distribute that damage across multiple locations. Due to the way hit detection, hit boxes, LRM flight paths and LRM spread function in MWO, LRMs have become a 'smash the center torso of my target' weapon instead.

If the missiles were on a flat trajectory, like SRMs, then the "Just torso twist to defend your CT, noob" argument would be relevant. However, LRMs come down from above, and most of the 'head' of a 'Mech is counted as the Center Torso armor section. Many of us recall the disaster of the near-vertical LRM descent, which would quickly destroy the cockpit of any 'Mech with splash damage. Without splash damage, even on a shallower angle, LRMs are still focused on the upper torso and head. A Catapult might be able to use its high-placed arms as a shield to some degree, but an Atlas or a Hunchback has no chance.

For the sake of gameplay, it would be better if LRM damage was more evenly distributed across the armor sections of the target. Doing that on a per-missile basis would render LRM5 and LRM10 totally worthless, however, hence the 5 missile targeting group idea.

Using location targeting, as SSRMs currently do, has already demonstrated that it is effective at distributing damage. With limited development time and resources in mind, this seems like the most viable option for distributing LRM damage, even if the actual process seems a bit odd.

[Bendak]

ManDaisy, on 25 July 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Honestly LRM's are just about right. There should be no last minute tracking to screw with their grouping, as they are behaving as normal missiles would right now coming down as a cluster.

I pretty much have your sentiment. They are long range bombardment weaponry. Currently I feel LRMs are the best they have ever been and the effectiveness varies depending on the pilot. A bad pilot will struggling to cause damage but a good pilot with TAG makes them seem over powered. The fact that TAG exists in my book means LRMs already have all they need in regards of targeting. I don't oppose the argument of the OP but I don't regard it as a necessary change.

[Training Instructor]

I support this. I'm sorry, but LRMs are one of the first weapons people tend to stop using when they learn how to move and shoot.

[Renthrak]

Bendak, on 27 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

I don't oppose the argument of the OP but I don't regard it as a necessary change.

Certainly, the game would function with LRMs as-is. They are in a better place than when I first created the poll without a doubt. Still, I think there is considerable room for improvement. I also believe the effort required to implement this idea is very small compared to the result.

If this works as intended, I would like to see people who have a few tons to work with decide to bring along a smaller LRM launcher as a secondary weapon. The idea being to fire off a few volleys at range, then moving in to exploit the weakened armor locations.

I think it's a problem that players generally either boat LRMs as a primary weapon, or don't use them at all. I want to see LRMs become a part of a well-rounded build the way SRMs already are. For that to be possible, they need some tweaking, hence this thread. Random location seeking would prevent LRMs from returning to instant-death weapons, while the 5 missile groups would make any size launcher useful. Even an LRM5 becomes essentially an AC/5 with a 1000m range at 1/3 of the weight.

Straight nerf/buff gets us nowhere, altering the function of the weapon can do what changing the basic stats can't.

[Kell Commander]

LRM's should also lose target lock when the person firing them overheats and shuts down.

[Renthrak]

Kell Commander, on 27 July 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

LRM's should also lose target lock when the person firing them overheats and shuts down.

I'm not really sure if this is necessary in addition to the immediate damage taken during overheating. It's not directly related to the issue at hand, so I'll defer that debate for now.