62 replies to this topic

[Mokou]

LPL is heavy energy close-range weapon? I don't think so.
I compared some different close-range weapons.
Realy guys, look at stats.
(DpSpT - damage per second per tonn; HpSpT - heat per second per tonn)
LPL - 0.357 DpSpT - 0.261 HpSpT
AC20 - 0.357 DpSpT - 0.107 HpSpT
SRM6 - 0.75(0.56)* DpSpT - 0.33(0.25)* HpSpT
*with artemis

So i think LPL too hot for 0.35 DpSpT (yeah i know AC20 need ammo, but look at SRM6 and compare).
I'l better use LL with 0.424 DpSpT, 0.33 HpSpT (similar profile to SRM6) in close range. Weapon with more range, better in close range than close-range weapon?! Something really wrong!

What u think about, guys?

Edited by Mokou, 23 May 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Roland]

Yes, LPL are generally a trash tier weapon. The LL is pretty much always gonna be a flat out better choice.

[Khobai]

Pulse lasers in general are terrible. In tabletop, pulse lasers get a massive bonus to accuracy, which is not represented in MWO in any meaningful way. An easy fix would be to give pulse lasers triple their max range instead of double their max range to represent their higher accuracy at longer range.

[ICEFANG13]

Actually 2 LPL have a higher sustained DPS than 3 LL (1 less ton, 2 less slots as well). Sustained DPS is not as important, but on lights (which can't usually use it because its so heavy) that get behind enemy mechs (which currently is impossible against a semi competent team), sustained DPS is really important for a long backstab.

[Jman5]

Your AC/20 HpSpT is off. It should be 0.107 not 0.017

Edited by Jman5, 23 May 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Mokou]

ICEFANG13, on 23 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Actually 2 LPL have a higher sustained DPS than 3 LL (1 less ton, 2 less slots as well). Sustained DPS is not as important, but on lights (which can't usually use it because its so heavy) that get behind enemy mechs (which currently is impossible against a semi competent team), sustained DPS is really important for a long backstab.

Sustained DPS not so important for close range.
Close range weapon should have high max-DPS in 7-14 seconds.

Jman5, on 23 May 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Your AC/20 HpSpT is off. It should be 0.107 not 0.017

Thanks, fixed.

Edited by Mokou, 23 May 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[EyeOne]

I dunno about all your fancy maths you done there but I use and enjoy killing people with LPLs and MPLs.

[Roland]

ICEFANG13, on 23 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Actually 2 LPL have a higher sustained DPS than 3 LL (1 less ton, 2 less slots as well).

Except that they don't really, because their range is so terribad by comparison. In many situations, the huge reduction in range makes them actually deal LESS damage than if you had a LL mounted instead. So you're effectively paying additional tonnage and heat, to do less damage.

The fact is that the pulse lasers have too many disadvantages compared to the standard lasers, that their advantages do not make up for.

[StalaggtIKE]

Advantages? They look and sound nice. That's about it it.

Edit: On the other hand mplasers are quite effective versus lights.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 23 May 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Mokou]

EyeOne, on 23 May 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I dunno about all your fancy maths you done there but I use and enjoy killing people with LPLs and MPLs.

I enjoy killin mechs with ERPPC in close range, circumstances permit me do it.
I don't say LPL "OMGTHISWEAPONISSHIT!". If u have brain and abilities u can use any weapon.
But LPL have realy low DpSpT for energy close-range weapon.

StalaggtIKE, on 23 May 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Advantages? They look and sound nice. That's about it it.

Edit: On the other hand mplasers are quite effective versus lights.

WOOB WOOB WOOB~

Edited by Mokou, 23 May 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Jman5]

Khobai, on 23 May 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Pulse lasers in general are terrible. In tabletop, pulse lasers get a massive bonus to accuracy, which is not represented in MWO in any meaningful way.

The shorter beam duration improves accuracy. Not a massive bonus, but it's there.

[Raso]

LPL should be a weapon feared up close and personal. All pulse lasers should be feared as a close range weapon.

I propose that pulse lasers should work like a burst fire weapon. That is, rather than spreading damage along many smaller ticks it should deal big damage along the course of several pulses. I propose 3-5 pulse per beam. I also propose that the over all duration of each beam should be reduced further for more precise damage. Finally their cool down timers should be slightly reduced.

Another avenue would be to reduce their over all damage, cut their heat a bit, drastically cut their beam duration and cool down and turn them into something more akin to a high heat, ammoless, AC or a close range, rapid fire PPC (sans the EMP). This would require a good deal extra balance and would, essentially, require working them up from scratch.

I think the problem with pulse lasers atm is that they are treated like beam lasers with a shorter range and minimal extra damage. They need something extra to differentiate them from beam weapons and reward players for using them up close and personal.

[Fate 6]

ICEFANG13, on 23 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Actually 2 LPL have a higher sustained DPS than 3 LL (1 less ton, 2 less slots as well). Sustained DPS is not as important, but on lights (which can't usually use it because its so heavy) that get behind enemy mechs (which currently is impossible against a semi competent team), sustained DPS is really important for a long backstab.

What about 2LPL vs 2LL? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I suspect 2LL has higher sustained DPS. Sustained DPS is a very odd number with the current heat system and recharge rate,etc. Plus, you can start shooting sooner with LL, which definitely is relevant.

[ICEFANG13]

Fate 6, on 23 May 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

What about 2LPL vs 2LL? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I suspect 2LL has higher sustained DPS. Sustained DPS is a very odd number with the current heat system and recharge rate,etc. Plus, you can start shooting sooner with LL, which definitely is relevant.

2LPL still win over 2LL, but (although quite a bit more slots) 2LL with 4 DHS beats 2 LPL.

[Fate 6]

ICEFANG13, on 23 May 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

2LPL still win over 2LL, but (although quite a bit more slots) 2LL with 4 DHS beats 2 LPL.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. The range difference is also pretty big. The difference of 1 damage makes the "burst" of pulse lasers pretty laughable with the current heat system and refire system.

[Mokou]

Fate 6, on 23 May 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

What about 2LPL vs 2LL? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I suspect 2LL has higher sustained DPS. Sustained DPS is a very odd number with the current heat system and recharge rate,etc. Plus, you can start shooting sooner with LL, which definitely is relevant.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=14&l=8b3a0e68b496f33b8977a7078040478819ef2a04
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=14&l=ba361fcac0d2f45e105bc7ac66adfe5132e4c179

LL with same tonnage (i add more HS) have more sustainde DPS.
Without extra HS, i have little difference: 1.23 for LL, and 1.30 for LPL.
This is ridiculous.

Edited by Mokou, 23 May 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Monky]

The fix is actually pretty simple - reduce the beam time. Less spread of damage = largely overcoming one of the major weaknesses of lasers.

anything near half a second and below would be ideal for pulse lasers.

[MeatForBrains]

ICEFANG13, on 23 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Actually 2 LPL have a higher sustained DPS than 3 LL (1 less ton, 2 less slots as well). Sustained DPS is not as important, but on lights (which can't usually use it because its so heavy) that get behind enemy mechs (which currently is impossible against a semi competent team), sustained DPS is really important for a long backstab.

This is untrue. 2.5 dps for LPL vs. 2.12dps for LL

5dps for 2xLPL or 6.36 dps for 3xLL

[nemesis271989]

Mokou, on 23 May 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

LPL is heavy energy close-range weapon? I don't think so.
I compared some different close-range weapons.
Realy guys, look at stats.
(DpSpT - damage per second per tonn; HpSpT - heat per second per tonn)
LPL - 0.357 DpSpT - 0.261 HpSpT
AC20 - 0.357 DpSpT - 0.107 HpSpT
SRM6 - 0.75(0.56)* DpSpT - 0.33(0.25)* HpSpT
*with artemis

So i think LPL too hot for 0.35 DpSpT (yeah i know AC20 need ammo, but look at SRM6 and compare).
I'l better use LL with 0.424 DpSpT, 0.33 HpSpT (similar profile to SRM6) in close range. Weapon with more range, better in close range than close-range weapon?! Something really wrong!

What u think about, guys?

You got it wrong you should not compare LPL to Auto-cannons at all.
Lasers require no ammo, it is much lighter than Auto-cannons and there is no such a thing as miss with a laser comparing to Auto-cannons' projectile that can hit terrain or simply miss.
Large pulse lasers are fine.... have 2 of them shoot 1 by 1 and add more dps with additional weapon systems

[MeatForBrains]

The only problem I see with Pulse Lasers is they are WAY too heavy for what they do.

LPL should be closer to 6 tons
MPL should be closer to 1.5 tons
SPL should be closer to .6 tons