69 replies to this topic

[Accursed Richards]

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll find me in the next thread I post in. We can kiss and have some angry sex then.

It is jolly nice of him to keep bumping this thread, though.

[SixBottles]

yeah LPL need a light adjustment... adjust the damage falloff, and get rid of the extra weight (or maybe just one ton).
less range and more heat should be enought to compansate for that .25 shorter duration


oh... and btw

[Kmieciu]

It's hard to justify the double weight on SPL and MPL in comparison to SL and ML.
Pulse laser would have to be twice as effective to justify the weight.

[Kaldor]

Roland, on 23 May 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

It is unlikely that they will change the weight, as that screws up stock builds.

I would suggest, instead, they increase the range.

I dont know why everyone is all hung up on stock builds and weights. Do you know anyone that religiously only will run a stock build mech?

Reducing weight on pulse lasers is not a bad idea. Drop MPLs to 1.5 and LPL to 6. This makes them slightly more heavy, but not that much heavier.

I think dropping beam duration by .25 would be another decent step.

After all these changes, the heat will need to be examined. I would say make them 1 heat more than their standard counterpart.

Do not play with the ranges. Leaving those as they should be makes to make a decision, range or beam duration?

[John MatriX82]

Pulse lasers in general are interesting, but most of the times their weight, reduced range and heat output don't incentivate me to employ them as their non-pulse counterparts.

Imho all their weights should be lowered a bit (keeping range/heat/dmg as they are now), something like:
-LPL: 6 tons
-MPL: 1.5 tons
-SMPL: 0.75 tons (it's awkward I know, but 0.5 tons would make SPL to be absolutely more interesting than the normal SML since weight and range would be the same).

This would make them more interesting and they'd have still a quite weight burden and heat burden whenever you want to boat them.

Until then, whenever I'll have 7 free tons I will probably have also 3 crits and I'll place a PPC instead of a LPL or if I have 2 crits a normal LL or even an ERLL look more viable unless you really want to get up close; but even here it's better to invest in MLasers or SRMs rather than pulse lasers, heat-wise they are still better.

[Roland]

Kaldor, on 24 May 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

I dont know why everyone is all hung up on stock builds and weights. Do you know anyone that religiously only will run a stock build mech?

Reducing weight on pulse lasers is not a bad idea. Drop MPLs to 1.5 and LPL to 6. This makes them slightly more heavy, but not that much heavier.

Hey, I'm only telling you how it is. The devs have indicated that they are not real keen on changing the weight of weapons and equipment.

Kaldor, on 24 May 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Do not play with the ranges. Leaving those as they should be makes to make a decision, range or beam duration?

Why not change the ranges?

[Kaldor]

Roland, on 24 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Hey, I'm only telling you how it is. The devs have indicated that they are not real keen on changing the weight of weapons and equipment.

Which is unfortunate. Its not like we are following canon to the letter in this game. Some other weapons like AC2s and maybe AC10s need to have their weight examined. Thats an entirely different discussion though.

Roland, on 24 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Why not change the ranges?

Thin about it. Look at the LL and LPL. If the LPL shot 400m for 1 more damage, less beam duration, and .3 more heat as a LL which is 1 less damage, more beam duration, and .3 less heat , which would you use? I know I would use LPL on any mech I can get them into. Keeping them a lower ranged, but higher damage weapon, it forces people to make design decisions. Range or damage?

[MrZakalwe]

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

So in other words threads, on internet forums should be nothing but people supporting random ideas, k.

I think he made the point badly but what they were getting at is that the OP was never suggesting this as a game balance suggestion and I don't think it is even an idea for game balance; his point is that if the pulse lasers are balanced at their current weight and stats then the only sensible answer to a question of 'would you use them if they were buffed' would be 'absolutely' but the response was more muted giving us a fair indication that pulse lasers are rather weak in their current incarnation afterall if it isn't worth spending 5 tons on it then it certainly isn't worth spending 7, right?

That was how I read his posts (I may be giving him too much credit but I find thats a good start point online where nobody has tone of voice to aid them) and your replies imply that you misunderstood this and were stating that you thought a suggestion he had never made was stupid and that an idea he had never had was stupid.

I'm also not going to accuse you of trolling because I've noticed there are actually very few trolls online so the odds are against it.

[Huntsman]

Pulse laser damage vs heat vs refire rate should conspire to give pulse lasers a higher practical DPS rating even in high heat situation than the regular lasers, while giving them comparatively lower burst damage, and keeping their range disadvantage intact. They should weigh the same as regular lasers.

LPL example
current HPS: 1.83
current burst damage: 10
current weight: 7 tons
current duration: .75

suggested HPS: 1.3
suggested burst damage: 8
suggested weight: 5 tons
suggested duration: .5

Edited by Huntsman, 24 May 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

The range is still lower. I think they are currently balanced as-is. iirc brawling has been dead since they reduced laser/PPC heat across the board. Hard to tell what they would be like if brawling made a comeback.

[MuKen]

MrZakalwe, on 24 May 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

That was how I read his posts (I may be giving him too much credit but I find thats a good start point online where nobody has tone of voice to aid them) and your replies imply that you misunderstood this and were stating that you thought a suggestion he had never made was stupid and that an idea he had never had was stupid.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as well and assume any condescension in your tone toward both of us was also unintentional and a result of online format.

Soy understands what I was saying by now. He just chose to go with a more inciteful reply of "well that's dumb too!" rather than acknowledging he had misunderstood anything for the first 3/4 the conversation.

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

the purpose of this thread is not to propose any particular "fix" to pulse lasers, only to consider whether or not they bring enough advantages to merit what they cost.

I am not saying we should lower weight. I am just polling how good people think the OTHER tradeoffs of the pulse lasers are.

the purpose here is not to suggest anything. It is only to discuss just how bad the current balance is.

This thread is not to recommend lowering weight. It is only to point out that even if we did, they still wouldn't be great, so clearly they are not balanced now.

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

It's a dumb ******* question.

Yeah, lets just **** all over the game.

WOULD YOU PLAY THIS OR THAT IN A GAME THAT JUST GOT **** ON?

Dumb ******* question.

Cuz I wouldn't even play if the game was designed that horribly.

Obvs is obvs.

Edited by MuKen, 24 May 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Sug]

Pulse Laser just haven't been translated well into real time. In TT the advantage was increased damage and a -2 hit modifier (easier to hit with).

BUT in TT lasers did their damage like ballistics. All at once to the same location. In MWO it is entirely likely that your laser damage will be spread out among 2 or more locations.

If they lowered the Beam Duration and the Cooldown of the LPL while keeping heat/damage the same we would have a close range, acccurate, high dps, high hps weapon.

[mack sabbath]

Honestly, I wish pulses could get a makeover to render them more useful, simply because I LOVE the sound they make!

[Joseph Mallan]

Its the range... or lack of it that keeps Pulses of my builds.

[Soy]

MuKen, again, it doesn't have anything to do with misunderstanding.

It has to do with this. And this. And this.

Key thing is weight. I mean, yeah I want to play a MechWarrior with all of the weapon values completely ****** up, why don't we make an Atlas weigh 50 tons, lets make the Spider weigh 42.78 tons, etc.

My point is if the game itself was just completely thrown out of wack, I wouldn't be playing it. Cuz it'd be ******* dumb.

I'm no TT enthusiast, not in the slightest, nor do I think other MWs or stuff like that should be some sort fo permanent end-all reference point. But I do think that if the game had absolutely no ties to the mechanics developed previously, then there would be no foundation for this game to begin with.

This **** should be obvious as hell. So that's why I think the entire thing is dumb, cuz even bothering to play at that point would be a waste of time cuz the game wouldn't be balanced... why am I still explaining this... whats the phrase... don't throw the baby out with the bath water or something..? **** it.

Edited by Soy, 24 May 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[MuKen]

Soy, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

MuKen, again, it doesn't have anything to do with misunderstanding.

Sure it doesn't.

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Note: the purpose of this thread is not to propose any particular "fix" to pulse lasers, only to consider whether or not they bring enough advantages to merit what they cost.

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

I feel the same way about awful suggestions.

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

this is not a suggestion

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

I think this is a dumb ******* suggestion

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

this isn't a suggestion.

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Til then, this sucks *** but good try.

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

What's "this"? As I've said repeeatedly the purpose here is not to suggest anything.

Soy, on 23 May 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Your idea is ******* dumb.

MuKen, on 23 May 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

IT'S NOT AN IDEA. This thread is not to recommend lowering weight.

Edited by MuKen, 24 May 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Soy]

Bro fix your quotes, good lord.

How exactly would I misunderstand "would you like to swap weps X with weps Y?"

The game wouldn't be worth playing, who the **** cares about swapping... cuz not playing. Cuz no balance. Cuz ******* dumb. That's what would happen - dumb ****.

Really man? You think I have the misunderstanding? Ok bro. For the past day you've basically tried to make me reiterate my position 20 times in an attempt to undermine it, move the **** on.

Edited by Soy, 24 May 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[StandingInFire]

Ya the weight really makes them not worth using, but imo the way to fix it without having to worry about stock builds is to simply lower the heat of pulses as if that needless weight would have been spent on heatsinks (which you would probably anyways with the extra weight).

[MuKen]

Soy, on 24 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Bro fix your quotes, good lord.

The quotes malfunctioned because there were so many quotes of you ignoring what I said, the forum didn't like it. I had to edit out the last few.

Quote

How exactly would I misunderstand "would you like to swap weps X with weps Y?"

Why isn't there a quote block of me here? Oh right, because I never said that. Nice making stuff up.

Quote

The game wouldn't be worth playing, who the **** cares about swapping... cuz not playing. Cuz no balance. Cuz ******* dumb. That's what would happen - dumb ****.

You could have asked for a "I wouldn't play" option for the poll. Other people asked for additions and got them. Instead, you've chosen to antagonize everyone. Very constructive.

Quote

Really man? You think I have the misunderstanding? Ok bro. For the past day you've basically tried to make me reiterate my position 20 times in an attempt to undermine it, move the **** on.

Seriously? That's exactly what YOU did. You are the one making my position out to be what it is not. You have been saying all day long I made a bad suggestion, when I made NO SUGGESTION AT ALL. I just now quoted you doing that a ridiculous number of times. But go ahead, ignore your own past.

Edited by MuKen, 24 May 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Soy]

Really; getting that semantical.

Dude I'm done discussing this awful ****. I honestly don't care about this **** in the slightest, cuz I actually play the game and enjoy all the weapons, but it's plain as day that you obviously do care a lot about not sucking with pulses, so continue your forum warrioring and crusade for truly awful ******* ideas. Or suggestion. Or idea. Or question. Or whatever the **** pendantic **** you want to call it, doesn't matter, it's ******* dumb. The audacity that you think something like dropping weight on pulses in order to make them viable screams volumes about your place in the game.

I'll end it the way I started it.

For the thousandth time - it's ******* dumb.

Good luck with your thread and everything,