436 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

As if that is an advantage. You can fire anything else and hit the guy right away and do a lot more damage exactly where you want instantly or nearly instantly.

Not if he's behind an object.

[Prezimonto]

And if he's behind an object it only still hits if you've got a spotter (ie somewith else with direct line of sight). I'm okay with that.

I would like the people who claim missiles to be so superior to have played a missile boat during the a period of sniper wars. Instant damage + fast travel speed = minimal exposure time. LRM's pre-patch needed essentially medium range and 5 to 6 seconds of watching the missiles fly to your target or a team mate to be spotting (didn't happen since missiles sucked).

Post patch lrms feel OP mostly because everyone and their brother are loaded out with LRM's and/or spotting gear. I wish they had held off for a few weeks on the changes to see where the meta wound up. I actually don't terribly mind the lower splash, but I wish they had kept the amazing spotter assisted arc.

[DeaconW]

Prezimonto, on 26 May 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Post patch lrms feel OP mostly because everyone and their brother are loaded out with LRM's and/or spotting gear.

Are we playing the same game? Getting very few LRM's in matches.

Edited by DeaconW, 26 May 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Lrms are horrendous.

They have low damage, bad ammo ratio's, a long flight time, are useless under 180 meters, can be negated by terrain, ecm, ams, hit all over the targeted mech and even if you have direct line of sight they don't generally all hit the mech you aimed them at.

But you can fire them without line of sight. Yes you can if you want to have a horrible hit rate and reduce your already pathetic dmg to weight ratio.

But they require no skill because you can fire and forget. No you cannot. In exchange for having lock on capability you loose the ability to snipe and hide and instead have to hold your lock while getting hit by enemy fire or harassed by enemy light mechs or you loose your flight of missiles.

All this was a fair trade off when LRm's dealt good damage. But now it's better to use sniper weapons that allow you to hit and run and do not have ammo to run out of, ecm mechs to render you useless or a 180 meter min range.

[StalaggtIKE]

Yes, LRM are easy to "aim" and fire. However, their success is also dependent on the reaction of your intended target. To ensure their viability one needs:

• TAG
  
• Artemis
  
• modules
  
• multiple launchers
  
• redundant ammo

All this is needed in order to ensure you're not simply passively negated by ECM or a group of AMS. LRM are just not worth the investment. The weight to damage ratio is just too low.

[DarkBringer]

El Bandito, on 25 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Way to drop the ******* ball PGI. The game is now back to PPC spam. You know, that 2 months of boring as **** meta we had? Just when the playing field was becoming diverse after the 21st patch you guys pulled off this dumb hot-fix. Was planning to drop fifty bucks for appreciation, but now? **** it.



No LRMs are pure crap now. And every one is back to equally easy to use but far deadly PPCs.

Yes I agree.... Nerf the unrealistic pop-tarting ppc gauss mechs too at least all weapons will suck then too...

[arghmace]

Wintersdark, on 26 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

The PPC requires precision aim, the LRM simply requires I hold my crosshairs vaguely near my target.

There's nothing hard about precision aim. I cannot understand this "skill" argument. Anyone that has played mouse+keyboard shooters more than my grandma can land hits. Pointing and shooting is easy. But with LRM's you gotta hold the target in your sights for several seconds to do damage and even then he won't since he had the time to take cover unless he's a noob.

[AztecD]

poptarters think that skill is what they do, and since we cant hit them with out LRM's they believe that they are somehow elite pilots

[arghmace]

AztecD, on 27 May 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

poptarters think that skill is what they do, and since we cant hit them with out LRM's they believe that they are somehow elite pilots

Yes I would like to see these "high skill players" hit people with PPC's that fly at 120 meter per second.

[Tor6]

LRMs are terrible now, as are SRMs. Was this stuff not tested AT ALL?

[arghmace]

I think the main issue with this skill discussion is that pop tarts want this game to be Quake. Ability to shoot shouldn't be all that important in a MechWarrior game, I think. This is not a fast reflex shooter, this is supposed to be a mech simulator. So the skills that should be emphasized over fast reflex point and shoot are team play and managing your heat and multiple weapon systems and auxiliary systems and the war machine in general. Brains over reflexes. And as I said before, shooting well isn't excactly hard now, is it? I've been pointing my mouse at things for decades so I know how to do it. Is that something to take pride in?

Edited by arghmace, 27 May 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Kellea]

Do you need another month to make lrm a weaponsystem that deserves this name or are lrm to remain a constant joke in this game?

[shotokan5]

I do not mean to not agree with your comments but weapons seem to me to be very close now that missile fix. None of us are ever going to agree that all weapons are great. Everyone has an axe to grind about at least one weapon. Never have I personally seen a Mech game this close to being balanced. Am I happy with everything no, but no war is ever really perfect is it? Same goes for weapons. At least they are trying which is more than MS ever did.

[InRev]

Rebas Kradd, on 26 May 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

But you can fire LRM's without aiming or even a direct LOS. That's the tradeoff.

Someone has to have LOS. If not the LRM boat then a spotter, and last I checked spotters aren't invulnerable to PPCs and Gauss.

Anybody who sticks their head out for more than a second, anywhere on any map, gets instant hell dropped on their head. Spotting is incredibly unreliable, and a horrible argument against buffing LRMs, specially since a Tag beam is basically like saying "oh hey guys, I'm right over here, just follow that red laser and core me".

[Corvus Antaka]

arghmace, on 27 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I think the main issue with this skill discussion is that pop tarts want this game to be Quake. Ability to shoot shouldn't be all that important in a MechWarrior game, I think. This is not a fast reflex shooter, this is supposed to be a mech simulator. So the skills that should be emphasized over fast reflex point and shoot are team play and managing your heat and multiple weapon systems and auxiliary systems and the war machine in general. Brains over reflexes. And as I said before, shooting well isn't excactly hard now, is it? I've been pointing my mouse at things for decades so I know how to do it. Is that something to take pride in?

This. Anyone claiming "skill" in terms of pure aiming in this game is ridiculous, other shooters your elite guys are headshotting tiny pixels moving rapidly on the screen - that's skill, mechwarrior while that is present, many many other things are what make the game shine much more than any cry for aiming skill.

Thats the quality of a good game though. even in tribes while aiming is important splash guns let people with less elite aim compete as well, and the same applies to MWO.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 27 May 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Aslena]

Make max missiles fired based on the number of tubes in the slot rather than the size of the launcher. If you have 15 tubes you can use up to a LRM15 but a LRM20 would still just fire 15 missiles. That gets rid of extreme missile boating and makes it easier to balance missiles. If any of the mechs don't work out just adjust the tubes to bring them in line.

[Wintersdark]

arghmace, on 27 May 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

There's nothing hard about precision aim. I cannot understand this "skill" argument. Anyone that has played mouse+keyboard shooters more than my grandma can land hits. Pointing and shooting is easy. But with LRM's you gotta hold the target in your sights for several seconds to do damage and even then he won't since he had the time to take cover unless he's a noob.

I didn't say there was anything hard about it. Don't read into what I say - at no point did I use the word "Skill".

What I was addressing is the ease in balancing direct fire weapons relative to LRM's. LRM's are very difficult because essentially if one player on your team can see an enemy mech, every player can fire at him. Things are very different for direct fire weapons - only those who are exposed to the enemy can fire at him. What this means is incoming fire on one mech is limited. Better players will focus fire, but it's still limited by range and line of sight, which are virtually always limited. It's extremely rare to get more that 3-4 mechs firing at one enemy at a time just due to the physical line of fire difficulties.

LRM's, on the other hand... I see you, target you, and trundle up to brawl. I'm not a "spotter", I'm just a random brawler on my PUG team. Now the 7 other mechs with LRM's all open up, raining, say, 250 LRM's onto you. Splat.

So, this makes LRM's look more overpowered than they actually are.

It makes balancing them for good gameplay extremely difficult.

[Wintersdark]

arghmace, on 27 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I think the main issue with this skill discussion is that pop tarts want this game to be Quake. Ability to shoot shouldn't be all that important in a MechWarrior game, I think. This is not a fast reflex shooter, this is supposed to be a mech simulator. So the skills that should be emphasized over fast reflex point and shoot are team play and managing your heat and multiple weapon systems and auxiliary systems and the war machine in general. Brains over reflexes. And as I said before, shooting well isn't excactly hard now, is it? I've been pointing my mouse at things for decades so I know how to do it. Is that something to take pride in?

This isn't very constructive.

I hate trying to be the voice of reason, but this isn't a discussion between the Pop Tarts and the LRM Boats. This may come as a surprise, but I'm willing to lay hard cash that the majority of players actually want all the weapons to be viable. And, maybe it's just me, and I'm a crazy *******, but I'm willing to bet that most people have Pop Tarts, LRM Boats, Brawlers, and probably a lot of various hybrids in their stables.

I know I have a couple mechs that are kitted right now as pop tarts. A couple scouts, a pair of LRM boats, a sniper, and a whole whack of varying balanced builds across my 20 or so mechs. And even then, I change builds on mechs I'm using constantly.

So... No, "Pop Tarts" don't want this game to be Quake. They're not a separate group of players at all. Most are just using whatever is working best for them right now. And even amoungst people I know who really love pop tarting, they don't want everyone pop tarting because that leads to purely un-fun gameplay. Pretty much nobody enjoys a battle of 16 bouncing mechs taking random potshots around, just as practically nobody wants to see a game where every mech on the field is an LRM boat.

Edit: I quoted you, but I don't mean to single you out. It's just a common thread in these debates, this "Us vs. Them" thing, and it's really counterproductive.

Anyways, I'm sorry, I'm just ranty today.

Edited by Wintersdark, 27 May 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[CrazyJuan]

Aslena, on 27 May 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Make max missiles fired based on the number of tubes in the slot rather than the size of the launcher. If you have 15 tubes you can use up to a LRM15 but a LRM20 would still just fire 15 missiles. That gets rid of extreme missile boating and makes it easier to balance missiles. If any of the mechs don't work out just adjust the tubes to bring them in line.

No, it's stupid that the tubes are fixed in the first place.

[Tennex]

LRMs hitting all the time is bad game mechanics.

it promotes passive unengaging gameplay.

the person firing the LRMs are passive because they don't have to find a vantage point.
the person recieving fire is passive because there is no way to find any cover...

i can understand that they were trying to make LRMs easier to balance by making it more consistent. but in the process we get an unfun mechanic.

Edited by Tennex, 27 May 2013 - 03:08 PM.