142 replies to this topic

[Dude42]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I actually don't have too much of a problem with them. At least they have to come out of cover in order to fire, and can't just sit behind rocks waiting for missile locks on targets they can't even see.

I think JJ shake, especially when zoomed, would make pop-tarting a bit more balanced, because it would be harder for them to land an alpha on CT from >1000m metres.

Well, we've dropped together many times. You've seen my AWS-8R, you may have even seen how I run it(when I don't get disconnected, lol). You might even have noticed its the same loadout I've been running for the last 2 weeks. 2xERLL, 2xSRM6+Artemis, 2xLRM15+Artemis. I am a brawler, I will come get you, close range. If I can get you at 200-250m you're literally just toast. I don't sit behind a rock, nor do I "boat". So why should my loadout suffer because of the way some people choose to play the game? That would be like if they made PPCs do 3 damage to stop poptarts. Yea it might stop tarts, but it ruins everyone with a legit build trying to play the game as it was intended. That's what I feel like they have done by stealth nerfing missile damage. 0.7 damage per missile with a 180cm splash is more effective than 0.9 damage per missile with a 5cm splash(these numbers are from Paul's post). So the net result is a nerf to missile damage, and slight buff to indirect only fire. I feel slapped in the face. And while being slapped in the face, I have to listen to all the QQ about how overpowered missiles are, after what is essentially a nerf. Especially to my playstyle(direct fire, lighting you with ERLLs while raining missiles, while closing the distance so I could rock some SRMs too)

Edited by Dude42, 24 May 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Dude42]

cyberFluke, on 24 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yeah, that'd be great if it took any skill at all to hold down the spam button alongside the tag laser, god forbid skill is rewarded in any way...

You're funny. If your definition of "skill" is just pointing and clicking, then I demonstrated that I have twice as much skill as a poptart by simply double-clicking on the MW:O icon. I believe holding the TAG laser on the target for the duration of the flight is much more skillful than putting the cursor over the target once, for a fraction of a second, before clicking and dropping to complete safety.

In other words... QFT.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

2xERLL, 2xSRM6+Artemis, 2xLRM15+Artemis. I am a brawler, I will come get you, close range.

Does not compute, but nevermind me. Carry on.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Paul Inouye, on 24 May 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Rabble rabble rabble!!

Splash damage was reduced from 1.8m to 0.05m. That's 180cm to 5cm.

CT is taking more damage than the rest of your components why? Because the CT is the largest part of a BattleMech. It's going to take the most hits out of a volley of missiles. The missiles are not told to target any part of a Mech, they're told to get into position and follow that path from start to finish. If your target turns their torso 90 degrees from incoming missiles, they're going to lose an arm before they get cored.

There, now go cry some more about it.

[Dude42]

IV Amen, on 24 May 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Does not compute, but nevermind me. Carry on.

I will. I get most of my kills from the 2xSRM6+. I use the LRMs just to soften you up a little while I close the distance... But you pretty much have to be point blank for the SRMs. Also, the ERLLs have no minimum range, they're just as useful at point blank range as they are from across the map. I thought I explained my play style in my post.

So basically, what you're saying is, I cannot be a brawler because my mech has LRMs of any sort, even if I do nearly all of my fighting in the 1m-300m range. Or hell, you highlighted the lasers too, so I guess that means if i have a weapon with a range longer than x(what is your cutoff distance?) I can't brawl up close. Guess not. Good to know.

Edited by Dude42, 24 May 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Umbra8]

I'll just leave this here.

I'd be curious to see if you get the same results without it. If there's still considerable CT concentration when it's removed then there may still be a problem. Until then, seems to be working as intended.

[Bobdolemite]

4 matches

2xlrm15/2xlrm10 1080 ammo all fired - no additional damage done with other weapons for testing purposes

match 1: 267 damage
match 2: 316 damage
match 3: 229 damage
match 4: 358 damage

LRMS are not OP - it was nerfed to the floor months ago, comes back the 21st and is hotfixed on the 24th - you had a valid complaint about 80% angle and that is now fixed + a splash damage reduction. What exactly are you crying about now?

There is complaining then there is beating a dead horse - this one is getting all bloody and mushy you should just QYB and find cover.

[Livewyr]

I once shot an atlas in the CT with a Gauss Rifle.
It all went to the CT!

So I shot him again in the CT with a Gauss Rifle.
It all went to the CT again!

Damned broken Gauss Rifles.

-------------------

(You're whining that the only weapon in the game with a 180meter deadzone, AMS mitigator, ECM hardcounter, and freaking warning you're about to be hit.. is putting most of it's damage in the center torso with an accuracy booster.)

For real?

[Xeven]

Just put LRM back to exactly where they were before they got broke and add damage back in. Done.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

So basically, what you're saying is

That your setup is not efficient for brawling since it has 2 ER LL that generate more heat than LL (which has no minimum range either, btw) and it has 2 LRM launchers that are useless in a brawl. Not saying you can't brawl with it.

[Thuzel]

Monky, on 24 May 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

It is not how many volleys it took to score a kill - it's how the kill was done. What is the point of having sections of armor if everything just goes to the CT? What is the risk of running an XL engine - These things are determined by having fully functioning and properly implemented missile tracking/damage. If I'm taking out maybe an arm or a leg along with the CT and the combat time feels right - no complaints. The issue is it is only hitting the CT with signifigant damage.

You had Artemis and hit a slow mech, so no surprise there.

That being said, we've been complaining about this with streaks for most of a year now, so... What else can be said. PGI will probably get this changed sometime after 3050. The real 3050.

[Dude42]

IV Amen, on 24 May 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

That your setup is not efficient for brawling since it has 2 ER LL that generate more heat than LL (which has no minimum range either, btw) and it has 2 LRM launchers that are useless in a brawl. Not saying you can't brawl with it.

I disagree that those launchers are not good in a brawl. I think we may have different definitions of brawling range. Sounds to me like you're talking more point blank range only. But a brawl for me can go through several different ranges, and often times if the enemy gets about ~190m away i'll pop off a shot of LRM. That actually happens more often than you might think. It is quite effective too. If I'm battling another assault mech especially, since I'm often faster and can dictate the distances. Especially when we're moving around building and rocks, and most especially if more than 1 mech from each team is involved. I'm not just sitting there trying to circle-strafe you at point blank range. Not if I can help it anyway. At exactly 200 meters I can deliver full force of all weapons. 200m is not that far in this game. Heat has never been an issue in this build, as the only thing that even generates a noticeable heat are the lasers, and there's only 2. Its extremely rare that I'm constantly firing all weapons. I could swap them for LLs, but then I'd just be trading some range for some heat that I don't need. Also, its nice to be able to return fire at long range(outside 1km). Anyway, more to the point, at point blank range I can deliver a 32 point(2x9 + 12x1.5) semi-alpha at close range, or a 59 point alpha at 200m. In my opinion, that's not terrible. At least, it gets me kills.

[Sprouticus]

FIRST:

For people saying that the bug is not fixed, you are absolutely correct. Splash is not fixed. It never was. They REDUCED the splash for LRM's until the new non-splash system of missile damage is completed. This was not the FIX, it was a workaround.

It is not a perfect situation, but it fixes the major issues we had with the Tuesday patch. I have not seen the angle yet, so Ill withhold judgement on that.

SECOND:

For people who say the damage is good, it sounds like it is right where we want it. But the concentration is still to high. This will be fixed when they eliminate splash. The OP is not completely wrong in his statement about splash, just in his assumption that this patch was a FIX.

THIRD:
It is possible that with Artemis + TAG is the reason for heavy concentraiton. And frankly, if that is the case, Im ok with that. ARTEMIS means you are direct firing. TAG means someone is holding the tag laser on them. Both of those things require you to be exposed, thus being open to return fire. If heavy concentration is due to that, I think that is working as intended.

My Trebchet LRM 25(Arty15+Arty10) + TAG spends 15 tons for 22.5 damage. An AC 20 spends 14 tons for 20 damage but less range. A Gauss Rifle spends 15 tons for 15 damage and roughly equal range.

I should not be able to sit behind a hill and do 25 damage mainly to a single location. But if I am exposed and using TAG, that 22.5 damage should be fairly focused upon the torsos, and I would be fine if 80% of that damage went to a single location.


It does raise concerns that when splash is eliminated that damage might be a bit low. We shall see. Really, until the new system is in place and tested, we won't know for sure whether LRM's are balanced. And due to different flight paths and grouping for different equipment,

[Ningyo]

Did some testing (admittedly in testing grounds if you have a friend you can test like this in actual match maybe) a more complete posting is in the patch feedback thread however.

firing a single LRM 5 on a catapult from 300m range 21 volleys was about 30m above it in height and directly to its right side (unaccounted missiles could be 2 hitting same location, or true misses)
RA 19/RL 12/RT 21/CT 17/LT 21 (15 unaccounted missiles)
21 x 5 missile volleys = 105 missiles
17-32 hit CT stripping all armor : at least 21 hit RT and LT making them Yellow

Screenshot of dmg to catapult after the 21 volleys
https://picasaweb.go...703188663920674

This pretty clearly shows CT is taking 3-6 times the damage it should, although other parts may be taking correct damage.

however I did notice if CT was not hit it appeared to take no damage so I do not believe this is a splash damage issue, I think it is a different bug.

Edited by Ningyo, 24 May 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[cyberFluke]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

You're funny. If your definition of "skill" is just pointing and clicking, then I demonstrated that I have twice as much skill as a poptart by simply double-clicking on the MW:O icon. I believe holding the TAG laser on the target for the duration of the flight is much more skillful than putting the cursor over the target once, for a fraction of a second, before clicking and dropping to complete safety.

In other words... QFT.

You're dead wrong. I'm the guy that never stops shouting about the fact that projectiles are nothing more than point and click. I'm the one that advocates a LOT more depth to aiming ANY weapon.

Get your facts straight before mouthing off, it makes you look like a the complete ignorant fool you are.

[Dude42]

cyberFluke, on 24 May 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

You're dead wrong. I'm the guy that never stops shouting about the fact that projectiles are nothing more than point and click. I'm the one that advocates a LOT more depth to aiming ANY weapon.

Get your facts straight before mouthing off, it makes you look like a the complete ignorant fool you are.

I apologize for my assumption, however, given that the choices available are projectile weapons, beam weapons, and missiles, and you do not believe missiles require skill to the point of making a post to that effect, it is only logical to assume that you believe one of the other two weapon types do. I believe the statistical likelihood of you believing hitscan(lasers) weapons are the pinnacle of skill is quite low. That leaves projectile weapons(PPC,Gauss,AC). Alas, I was wrong.

Now, I quite agree with you that all weapons could use some work, especially convergence and projectile speed(I'm looking at you PPC). But your post did not even hint at such a position. It was just a dump on the skillessness of the missile system, without a suggestion for improvement of said system.

I personally disagree about the amount of skill it takes to run an LRM equipped mech well. There's a lot more involved than just the actual clicking of the fire button if you were to ask me. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, it could always be better. I for one liked the idea proposed by someone earlier that missile firing arcs be heavily influenced by aim direction at firing time.

If you expect me(or anyone else really) to go through the post history of every individual before responding, well, I hate to disappoint, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen.

Edited by Dude42, 24 May 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Nauht]

Rofl. I laugh at LRM users saying they have "skill".

The only skill they need is judging the rock in front of them is big enough to hide them but small enough so that the missiles arc over it.

Oh and also finding out where team chat is to type "I need targets, press R fools".

[cyberFluke]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I apologize for my assumption, however, given that the choices available are projectile weapons, beam weapons, and missiles, and you do not believe missiles require skill to the point of making a post to that effect, it is only logical to assume that you believe one of the other two weapon types do. I believe the statistical likelihood of you believing hitscan(lasers) weapons are the pinnacle of skill is quite low. That leaves projectile weapons(PPC,Gauss,AC). Alas, I was wrong.

Now, I quite agree with you that all weapons could use some work, especially convergence and projectile speed(I'm looking at you PPC). But your post did not even hint at such a position. It was just a dump on the skillessness of the missile system, without a suggestion for improvement of said system.

I personally disagree about the amount of skill it takes to run an LRM equipped mech well. There's a lot more involved than just the actual clicking of the fire button if you were to ask me. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, it could always be better. I for one liked the idea proposed by someone earlier that missile firing arcs be heavily influenced by aim direction at firing time.

If you expect me(or anyone else really) to go through the post history of every individual before responding, well, I hate to disappoint, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen.

Apology accepted, it would be a shame to make an enemy of someone who clearly shares my opinions with weapons skill. I like the LRM direction and Arc by aim idea, it would make LRMs much more interactive than the practically dumbfire system we have. I do understand that there is more to Lurming than just point and hold "I Win", I have 3 CATs myself. The problem is since the maps are fixed rather than procedurally generated or dynamic spawn areas, the "best" positions are just a matter of learning a grid ref, there's only a little scope for tactical positioning. The same can be said of the other weapons too, that their best positions for use can be learned, but they require more interactive firing that can go wrong far more easily.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I disagree that those launchers are not good in a brawl. I think we may have different definitions of brawling range. Sounds to me like you're talking more point blank range only. But a brawl for me can go through several different ranges, and often times if the enemy gets about ~190m away i'll pop off a shot of LRM. That actually happens more often than you might think. It is quite effective too. If I'm battling another assault mech especially, since I'm often faster and can dictate the distances. Especially when we're moving around building and rocks, and most especially if more than 1 mech from each team is involved. I'm not just sitting there trying to circle-strafe you at point blank range. Not if I can help it anyway. At exactly 200 meters I can deliver full force of all weapons. 200m is not that far in this game. Heat has never been an issue in this build, as the only thing that even generates a noticeable heat are the lasers, and there's only 2. Its extremely rare that I'm constantly firing all weapons. I could swap them for LLs, but then I'd just be trading some range for some heat that I don't need. Also, its nice to be able to return fire at long range(outside 1km). Anyway, more to the point, at point blank range I can deliver a 32 point(2x9 + 12x1.5) semi-alpha at close range, or a 59 point alpha at 200m. In my opinion, that's not terrible. At least, it gets me kills.

Yes, I believe we seem to have different view on brawling. The way I see it, when you brawl, the guy is at your face and you either face the guy (brawl) or run and take hits to your rear torso. You are not in a brawl >180m. I do like the variety you are using in your build, even though I would change couple of things. Suited for my playstyle of course and your style is apparently a bit different. I wish you success in your battles!

[Livewyr]

rofl at lrm haters declaring no skill.. without a clue.

If you DO use them; You're probably the one who can't land %50 of your missiles because you don't know how to use them.