48 replies to this topic

[Ragnar Darkmane]

Hi guys,
after the last patch that introduced the new terrain movement and overheat damage there has been a huge increase in AC 40 Jagers as far as I noticed. Because I'm not min/maxing my stats are solid but rather average (55% win rate) so my ELO shouldn't be too high, so I was quite surprised by this change. Pretty much 70%-80% of the Jagers I encounter are running around with double AC 20s (often 2-3 per team). That usually results in city fights being over rather quickly 'cause most of the time the team with more Jagers simply uses a route that has lots of cover and forces people into fights within 300m range and the matches are often over within 3 minutes (thanks to the Jagers).
Am I the only one who noticed this? Have AC40 Jagers become so powerful that they dominate close range fighting while PPCs dominate anything above 300m? Discuss.

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 05 July 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[soarra]

ac40 mechs have always been dominant up close but they have major weaknesses.
eithor xl in the jager or it moves slow
catapult - bullseye for a cockpit

[FactorlanP]

I still see mostly PPC and PPC/Gauss builds. Sure there are Jager Bombs running around running twin AC20s... I haven't noticed more of them than before.

Honestly, the AC40 isn't nearly as much of a problem as the various PPC and PPC/Gauss cheez...

As said before, the AC40s have actual weaknesses that can be used against them.

Edited by FactorlanP, 05 July 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Lostdragon]

I have been playing a HGN 732 with 3 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle. I have seen people in AC20 Jagers do well and they can be scary but I think a HGN or STK with a loadout like mine is much scarier and harder to deal with. My HGN has more armor, more mobility due to jump jets, a shield arm, a higher alpha, and much more range.

That mech is so OP that I feel bad for playing it, but I figure the best way to illustrate there is a problem is to take advantage of the meta sometimes. Plus after getting trounced in an AWS it is nice to play an assault that is effective.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I have seen the ac-jagers running in packs as you describe all on teams. I have to assume its a pug stomp thing becuse the last two times the three had ecm in trail and moved together. They did just as you wrote and made the match in under a couple of minutes. I know people say they can be countered and maybe one at a time but try three and see how well it goes.

No matter what pgi does those who are only out to farm xp will find any exploit they can. Thats why i am for letting solos have the option to drop solo or against teams. It iwll put a quick end to xp stomp teams because they will actuialy have to fight on fair ground and AC 40 yeagers will be history.

[William Mountbank]

I saw an AC20 Raven yesterday. It wasn't very effective, but it was a surprise.

[jakucha]

They're glass cannons more or less.

[MERC Mournblade]

Can you [redacted] the ac40 nonsense. I'm sick of seeing it, as though the ppc gauss meta does not exist. Focus on 'real' problems instead of imaginary ones.

Edited by miSs, 05 July 2013 - 12:46 PM.
language + insults

[FactorlanP]

Mudhutwarrior, on 05 July 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I have seen the ac-jagers running in packs as you describe all on teams. I have to assume its a pug stomp thing becuse the last two times the three had ecm in trail and moved together. They did just as you wrote and made the match in under a couple of minutes. I know people say they can be countered and maybe one at a time but try three and see how well it goes.

No matter what pgi does those who are only out to farm xp will find any exploit they can. Thats why i am for letting solos have the option to drop solo or against teams. It iwll put a quick end to xp stomp teams because they will actuialy have to fight on fair ground and AC 40 yeagers will be history.

Two different issues.

Pub stomping is a huge issue, that really needs to be addressed for the health of the game. But it isn't caused by AC40s...

Honestly, three mechs working together closely and focusing fire, will decimate pub groups whether they are running AC40 Jagers or Hunchbacks. The Jagers just are able to do it a little faster.

[Butane9000]

Yea AC40's are tough to deal with close up. You're best bet is to take them out at range when they are in the open. Each chassis has it's weaknesses:

Catapult - Has to use a standard engine to fit both AC20's. Very slow moving. Limited torso movement.

Jagermech - Generally uses an XL engine. Weak armor on side torso/arms.

[Mokou]

Quote

AC 40 DOMINATION AFTER THE LAST PATCH

There?

[Rahnu]

Every time this topic comes out, the same responses come out.

FYI - XL engine is not a noticeable weakness. There are loads of builds that use XL engines but none of them are going to be as effective as a PPC/Gauss or AC/40 build.

The fact that PPCs are egregiously overpowered does not excuse the current state of AC/40s. That is a fallacy. If PPCs get fixed, AC/40s will remain the strongest premier brawling weapon system you can possibly field.

There are easy fixes for both - for example, setting PPC heat back to their previous TT levels, making the PPC beam do damage over time (5/1/1/1/1/1 damage increments over the length of the beam, as one example), and finally, making the AC/20 fire multiple rounds of 5 or 10 damage instead of a single large shell would all easily solve the issue.

What's more mind-boggling is that there are people defending these ridiculously massive alphas and that PGI has consistently failed to address the issue for months.

Edited by Zyrusticae, 05 July 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[soarra]

Zyrusticae, on 05 July 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Every time this topic comes out, the same responses come out.

FYI - XL engine is not a noticeable weakness. There are loads of builds that use XL engines but none of them are going to be as effective as a PPC/Gauss or AC/40 build.

The fact that PPCs are egregiously overpowered does not excuse the current state of AC/40s. That is a fallacy. If PPCs get fixed, AC/40s will remain the strongest premier brawling weapon system you can possibly field.

There are easy fixes for both - for example, setting PPC heat back to their previous TT levels, making the PPC beam do damage over time (5/1/1/1/1/1 damage increments over the length of the beam, as one example), making the AC/20 fire multiple rounds of 5 or 10 damage instead of a single large shell would all easily solve the issue.

What's more mind-boggling is that there are people defending these ridiculously massive alphas and that PGI has consistently failed to address the issue for months.

were not defending them, just saying how to deal with them until a fix is put in for all these stupid non canon builds

[BillyM]

Zyrusticae, on 05 July 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Every time this topic comes out, the same responses come out.

FYI - XL engine is not a noticeable weakness. There are loads of builds that use XL engines but none of them are going to be as effective as a PPC/Gauss or AC/40 build.

The fact that PPCs are egregiously overpowered does not excuse the current state of AC/40s. That is a fallacy. If PPCs get fixed, AC/40s will remain the strongest premier brawling weapon system you can possibly field.

There are easy fixes for both - for example, setting PPC heat back to their previous TT levels, making the PPC beam do damage over time (5/1/1/1/1/1 damage increments over the length of the beam, as one example), and finally, making the AC/20 fire multiple rounds of 5 or 10 damage instead of a single large shell would all easily solve the issue.

What's more mind-boggling is that there are people defending these ridiculously massive alphas and that PGI has consistently failed to address the issue for months.

Quoted for truth... Just because one thing is terribly out of balance (PPC's) does not mean we should ignore the other balance issues. SRM's and LBX's need buffs, Seismic, PPC's and AC20's need "balancing". No sense not mentioning it all.

+1

--billyM

[MERC Mournblade]

I swear the same people complaining about jagers are the ones running gauss pcc builds. Cheese begets cheese, and that is the bottom line...

[Kiiyor]

soarra, on 05 July 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

ac40 mechs have always been dominant up close but they have major weaknesses.
eithor xl in the jager or it moves slow
catapult - bullseye for a cockpit

You are right about XLAC40 Yagers and their weaknesses - pop the torso, and its all over.

The trouble is, there are few other mechs in the game (and certainly nothing lighter than another Yager) that can pop said torso before they die horribly with a hole in their chest a Jenner could hide in. Sure, your PPC+Gauss death boats can kill them, but once they are within 250m?

They are stupendously powerful. Stating that their drawbacks in any way balance them is a glorious lie. I'm not saying they should be nerfed (every story needs a villain) - I'm just saying people should be honest when they discuss their viability.

[Butane9000]

Zyrusticae, on 05 July 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Every time this topic comes out, the same responses come out.

FYI - XL engine is not a noticeable weakness. There are loads of builds that use XL engines but none of them are going to be as effective as a PPC/Gauss or AC/40 build.

The fact that PPCs are egregiously overpowered does not excuse the current state of AC/40s. That is a fallacy. If PPCs get fixed, AC/40s will remain the strongest premier brawling weapon system you can possibly field.

There are easy fixes for both - for example, setting PPC heat back to their previous TT levels, making the PPC beam do damage over time (5/1/1/1/1/1 damage increments over the length of the beam, as one example), and finally, making the AC/20 fire multiple rounds of 5 or 10 damage instead of a single large shell would all easily solve the issue.

What's more mind-boggling is that there are people defending these ridiculously massive alphas and that PGI has consistently failed to address the issue for months.

So by your reckoning we should have the auto cannons in game operate like auto-cannons in real life instead of their currently auto-loading tank cannon?

First How it is currently, where the only difference is the shell loading system:


Second how you'd propose it to be (at about the :50 second mark)


So by that reasoning we can expect things to be:

AC2 - 4 shots at .5 damage a piece

AC5 - 5 shots at 1 damage a piece

UAC5 - 5 shots at 1 damage a piece

AC10 - 5 shots at 2 damage a piece

AC20 - 4 shots at 5 damage a piece

The problem is how do you handle the damage drop off from range?

[Ph30nix]

why is it people never understand things...

The AC40 build is no stronger then it ever was (which it is really more of a one hit wonder to be honest) its just a combination of other builds being nerfed or changed to be no longer fun (or people just get bored with them) so people do something else.

With jagers there really isnt THAT much you can do build wise that viable in an original way and if you own 3 varients (or all 4 if you bought firebrand) and then there is the fact yea you CAN do a build but is it even worth it?
oh you can do 4 AC/5 for 32 tons and get 20 damage
or i can do 2 AC/20 for 28 tons and get 40.....
wait what? More damage for LESS tonnage? and less heat! screw that why would i gimp myself with the ac/5!!!
okay well then ill go for the UAC/5 thats gotta be better!
4 UAC/5 is 36 tons for 20 damage!!!

but you look at beam weapons (duration vs instant differnce asides)
Large laser 5 tons for 9 damage
medium laser 1 ton for 5 damage if you fit 5 tons worth of ML you'd get FAR more damage then a LL (more heat of course)
if you just try to match damage 2 ML costs you 2 tons, and gets you 10 damage for one more heat.

to make sense of what im trying to say, Ballistics while powerful are completely FORKED when it comes to balancing the differnt variations of them. The amount of critical slots and heat required to use them makes trying to use multiple SMALLER calibers completely worthless compared to just ONE larger version. Even if you take the shortened range into account your still better off taking an ac/20 vs an ac5. or even 1 ac/10 vs 2 ac/5.

I hope that makes sense, i the lower caliber ballistics were more balanced to the higher caliber like smaller Beam weapons were to larger ones, you would see ALOT more variety in ballistic mechs.

Note Balancing Ballistics doesnt mean Nerfing AC/20 into the ground.

also if you have all 3 of the basic variants i dont know about anyone else but i refuse to run 2 variants with the exact same build if i wanted to have to use the same build i wouldnt have bought the second variant.


t

Also if your trying to kill an AC/40 jager withing 500 meters then your an ***** and your doing it wrong.

[Braggart]

until srms are turned back into the scary powerhouse of a brawling weapon they are supposed to be, AC40 builds will continue to be deadly.

I hate AC40s, but not as much as the mass ppc builds, as putting AC20s on your mech has an actual downside because of size and crit space, and ammo.

Nothing else in brawl range can currently fight with a ac40 jager and win. that pinpoint damage is just to great to overcome. Do I think they are over powered? Yes just slightly, as you have drawbacks to making a build like that.

[XX Sulla XX]

Yep raising the damage of the SRMs back up will fix this. There will still be AC40 jaggers but there will also be lots of other viable builds that can take them on.