203 replies to this topic

[cyberFluke]

One Medic Army, on 26 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

There is more to skill in an FPS than pointing your reticule at the enemy and clicking, or at least that was one of the goals of MWO: to make the game about positioning, heat management, situational awareness, and target/weapon selection.

Personally I am in favor of RNG as part of the game mechanics (no I have never played CoD, I don't own a console either). Randomness means that any person can win vs any other person, differences in skill or situation change the percentages involved. I'd much rather play in a game where a newb has a 0.01% chance to beat a pro than a game where a newb has no chance, it means that there is always a chance of a reversal, and every combat is different. It adds variety and danger.

The traditional TT skill is to maximize your ability to damage your enemy while minimizing their ability to damage you, it's about manipulating probabilities.

Finally! Someone that gets it. Sir, have a golden internet.

[PEEFsmash]

One Medic Army, on 26 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Personally I am in favor of RNG as part of the game mechanics (no I have never played CoD, I don't own a console either). Randomness means that any person can win vs any other person, differences in skill or situation change the percentages involved. I'd much rather play in a game where a newb has a 0.01% chance to beat a pro than a game where a newb has no chance, it means that there is always a chance of a reversal, and every combat is different. It adds variety and danger.

This is actually quite depressing, and, unfortunately, the sure sign of a player who isn't at the top of the heap skill-wise.

You want RNG to randomly (albeit at a lower percentage) give bad players wins over players who are better in every way? This is sad. Skill should determine the win as often as is possible. In a game like MWO, there are many many skills involved, and none of them should be randomized! There will always be a small chance that a less-skilled player will beat one who is more skilled in every area because mistakes can be made, bad play can be confusing to good players and throw them off, and the bad player can hit some lucky shots. There is no need, nor was there ever in a competitive FPS, to add random number generation/unpredictable reticle bloom/cones to the aiming skill. Nor was there ever in a competitive FPS, except as a detriment to its competitive-ness, a reason to introduce a game mechanic that made it more likely for bad players to beat better ones. It blows my mind that anyone would support such a mechanic, unless they were not a top-player themselves. If you are not a great player, you will be placed in the "not-so-great player" Elo.

Yes, if it were up to me, SRMs would have a certain pre-determined spread, UAC5s would not randomly jam, etc. These are relatively minor random elements, though. Adding randomization to weapon convergence or shake, etc, would be horrible. Fluke suggested a non-random sway. I am really not too against this, but instead of making Jump-Sniping worse, it would instead make the better players EVEN BETTER and the worse players even worse, and I don't think that is what he is intending. The best jump snipers would work with the sway, and it wouldn't even affect them really, except by giving them headaches and making them puke. (It should also be mentioned as a side-note, that it makes no sense to have jump-jets impart sway...its not a motion that jump jets would ever force unless they were out of balance or something.)

Edited by PEEFsmash, 26 May 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Felbombling]

Yesterday, I am shamed to admit, I played five of the easiest games I've had with Mechwarrior: Online. I outfitted my Cataphract 3D with a Gauss Rifle and three PPCs and threw the whole lot into the same weapon grouping.

Click *BOOM* legged a Cicada. Click *BOOM* cored a Blackjack. Click *BOOM* nailed a Commando. Click *BOOM* crippled an Atlas.

If anyone thinks this type of game play took any real level of skill, I just don't know what to say to that person.

[keith]

Kitane, on 26 May 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Why do SRMs have a random spread in a skill-based game?

shotguns did in comp TF2 before they added a bunch of cvars. valve did a bunch of balancing based on comp tf2 too, such as reducing crit rate. before that a soldier could do amazing dam in around 20 sec, and have around 40% crit rate, just had to do around 2k dam in such time:P plus i'm sure srms spread is not random just looks it, if PGI calls it skill based game then does random spread, dumb move on their part.

[wolf74]

the simple fix is to REMOVE auto-convergence and replace it with manual controlled convergence point.

Player must control the convergence point (aka mouse wheel or joystick slider).
I will to give a +-5m auto correction.
CBT IS targeting computer (a little out of this time line but i think we can over look this for game play reasons) take the auto-correction uo to +-15m (weight and critical size of the IS TC is 1ton for every 4tons of direct fire weapons installed on the mech. (pulse lasers not supported)
Pulse Lasers have a +- of 25m auto-correction.

The above makes you a true mechwarrior where you really have to aim, gives targeting computers & Pulse laser their to hit boost and a reason to be in the game.

[TurinAlexander]

Those charts would be more impressive if you were anywhere near 100 on the weapons that aren't stupidly easy to hit things with. It counts as a hit if you you do any damage at all with a laser. Even if you miss you have time to correct while it's firing. Flat out missing with a laser is actually fairly hard to do if you're actively trying to hit your target.

Edited by TurinAlexander, 26 May 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Chavette]

Kitane, on 26 May 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Why do SRMs have a random spread in a skill-based game?

Its far from random. If it was, there would be a chance every Nth volleys would mimic the artemis equipped volleys. It doesn't really happen.

You are reliably able to calculate the spread and damage at a given range if you bother with it.

[Wonderful Greg]

jay35, on 26 May 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Please keep that in mind the next time you are tempted to start a thread that is in effect a request to remove player skill from the game.

This game is NOT skill based for a number of reasons:
1) Frames per second. Any FPS game that can't provide at least stable 50 fps is NOT skill based.
Here we have a 70-90 fps with HUD disabled and arond 35-40 with HUD On. Setting don't matter. Specs only affect MAX fps but not lowest.
2) Ping. Servers are only in US(yeah, i know it's still beta but fact remains).
3) Hit detection is almost random ATM.
4) Ability to fire exactly where you aim combined with almost TT damage values is wrong and broken by default. Right now properly customized assault can alpha strike most mecs.
5) What your mech can do affects game ten times more then what you can do.
And so on and so forth.
In it's current state the game is at least 9-12 month away from release. And forever from being cometetive, I'm afraid.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 26 May 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

This is actually quite depressing, and, unfortunately, the sure sign of a player who isn't at the top of the heap skill-wise.

You want RNG to randomly (albeit at a lower percentage) give bad players wins over players who are better in every way? This is sad. Skill should determine the win as often as is possible. In a game like MWO, there are many many skills involved, and none of them should be randomized! There will always be a small chance that a less-skilled player will beat one who is more skilled in every area because mistakes can be made, bad play can be confusing to good players and throw them off, and the bad player can hit some lucky shots. There is no need, nor was there ever in a competitive FPS, to add random number generation/unpredictable reticle bloom/cones to the aiming skill. Nor was there ever in a competitive FPS, except as a detriment to its competitive-ness, a reason to introduce a game mechanic that made it more likely for bad players to beat better ones. It blows my mind that anyone would support such a mechanic, unless they were not a top-player themselves. If you are not a great player, you will be placed in the "not-so-great player" Elo.

Yes, if it were up to me, SRMs would have a certain pre-determined spread, UAC5s would not randomly jam, etc. These are relatively minor random elements, though. Adding randomization to weapon convergence or shake, etc, would be horrible. Fluke suggested a non-random sway. I am really not too against this, but instead of making Jump-Sniping worse, it would instead make the better players EVEN BETTER and the worse players even worse, and I don't think that is what he is intending. The best jump snipers would work with the sway, and it wouldn't even affect them really, except by giving them headaches and making them puke. (It should also be mentioned as a side-note, that it makes no sense to have jump-jets impart sway...its not a motion that jump jets would ever force unless they were out of balance or something.)

Yes, I do want randomness to give bad players a chance to beat good players, because I like games where anything can happen.
We already have RNG to an extent, since its random who you're playing against, it's random what map you're on, and unless you're in an 8 man it's random who's on your team and what mechs they're in.

Here's the big thing, randomness allows for upsets, and upsets are the most exciting matches to play.

If there was never a need for randomness in FPS, explain why every single FPS of recent years has randomness. Even counter strike source had cones of fire for the inaccurate weapons.

Oh, and nice ad-homenim attack there, completely relevant to the discussion at hand I'm sure...

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 May 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[Hoaggie]

One Medic Army, on 26 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

There is more to skill in an FPS than pointing your reticule at the enemy and clicking, or at least that was one of the goals of MWO: to make the game about positioning, heat management, situational awareness, and target/weapon selection.

Personally I am in favor of RNG as part of the game mechanics (no I have never played CoD, I don't own a console either). Randomness means that any person can win vs any other person, differences in skill or situation change the percentages involved. I'd much rather play in a game where a newb has a 0.01% chance to beat a pro than a game where a newb has no chance, it means that there is always a chance of a reversal, and every combat is different. It adds variety and danger.

The traditional TT skill is to maximize your ability to damage your enemy while minimizing their ability to damage you, it's about manipulating probabilities.

I don't want a game where the wins and losses are random, I want it to be based on the skill and experience of each player (piloting, tactical, aiming, maneuvering, mech design, heat management, and positioning fir the best shot). Still, I think the answer to newbies not going up against pros can be solved in other ways than a RNG.

In my very first round of MWO I drove a stock HBK-4G and got a kill, I hadn't played a mech game in years.

[jay35]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 May 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

If you don't want RNG, and less alpha striking...

I don't. Alpha strikes are part of the game and there's already a heat scale that constrains their use quite well.

Quote

we need a reason to not fire multiple weapons at once.

We really don't.

[jay35]

One Medic Army, on 26 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

The traditional TT skill is to maximize your ability to damage your enemy while minimizing their ability to damage you, it's about manipulating probabilities.

TT turn-based mechanics have no place in a real-time game like MWO. If your starting premise is to want more of TT in MWO, you're the perfect candidate for MW:Tactics.

Edited by jay35, 26 May 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Hoaggie]

In the future, if these people get there way, mechs will have mana, and we wont be able to "cast" weapons because we wont have enough mana

[jay35]

PEEFsmash, on 26 May 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

This is actually quite depressing, and, unfortunately, the sure sign of a player who isn't at the top of the heap skill-wise.

You want RNG to randomly (albeit at a lower percentage) give bad players wins over players who are better in every way? This is sad. Skill should determine the win as often as is possible. In a game like MWO, there are many many skills involved, and none of them should be randomized! There will always be a small chance that a less-skilled player will beat one who is more skilled in every area because mistakes can be made, bad play can be confusing to good players and throw them off, and the bad player can hit some lucky shots. There is no need, nor was there ever in a competitive FPS, to add random number generation/unpredictable reticle bloom/cones to the aiming skill. Nor was there ever in a competitive FPS, except as a detriment to its competitive-ness, a reason to introduce a game mechanic that made it more likely for bad players to beat better ones. It blows my mind that anyone would support such a mechanic

Bingo.

[cyberFluke]

Hoaggie, on 26 May 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

I don't want a game where the wins and losses are random, I want it to be based on the skill and experience of each player (piloting, tactical, aiming, maneuvering, mech design, heat management, and positioning fir the best shot). Still, I think the answer to newbies not going up against pros can be solved in other ways than a RNG.

In my very first round of MWO I drove a stock HBK-4G and got a kill, I hadn't played a mech game in years.

What exactly is it about the use of random CoF that people don't understand?

I'll break it down as best I can, any further shows of ignorance will be extremely harshly ridiculed, be warned.

A random cone of fire does not mean all your shots are random. It does not mean a terrible shot suddenly has a good chance of hitting a target. Get that stupid hyperbole away from my sensible discussion. What a randomised cone of fire means is that your shots only hit the dead centre of the reticule if you're stationary with no heat, not taking fire, no-one running into you. It means if you want to have the greatest chance of hitting the target 1300 metres away with that 3 ERPPC and a Gauss alpha, you're going to have to stand still. The faster you move, the more spread out your weapons will be from centre of the reticule. The hotter you get, the more spread out your weapons get.

It does in no way magically make noob aiming better, it means there is more to consider when taking a shot than; "Can I point and click?" You'd have to consider your speed, your heat amongst other things. This is how MechWarrior is supposed to work, these factors are not only supposed to be important, but indeed make up the core effing game mechanics. To try and argue otherwise is essentially arguing for making MW:O work like Doom 2.

[One Medic Army]

jay35, on 26 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

TT turn-based mechanics have no place in a real-time game like MWO. If your starting premise is to want more of TT in MWO, you're the perfect candidate for MW:Tactics.

Funny you say that, poptarting is all about maximizing your ability to hit others while minimizing their ability to hit you, straight up TT tactics, even if implemented in a way impossible in TT.

[PEEFsmash]

One Medic Army, on 26 May 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Funny you say that, poptarting is all about maximizing your ability to hit others while minimizing their ability to hit you, straight up TT tactics, even if implemented in a way impossible in TT.

Maximizing your ability to hit others while minimizing their ability to hit you is the main tactic in ALL competitive games. Fighting games, shooters, MMOs, etc. That isn't going to leave, nor should it. "Hit them, don't get hit" is the one line explanation of the goal in most PvP games.

Fluke's latest diatribe again fails to even support the position that he is trying to support, and even encourages more poptarting and more assaultwarrior online. "The faster you move, the less accurate you should be"...really? Let's further nerf lights and make slow assaults even better. "The hotter you are the less accurate you should be"...really? What does my heat have to do with the flight path of the Gauss round shooting out of my arm pointed straight ahead? Mechs aren't humans who get "tired and trembly" when they get too hot, haha.

The funniest part though, is that perfect poptarting is done at the apex of the jump, when the mech is temporarily STATIONARY or drifting slowly one direction or the other in midair! Good poptarts don't shoot on the way up or the way down, but right at the top of their jump as they peek out their hardpoints.

Here is what I don't want, and it's rather simple. A match comes down to Mech A and Mech B. Mech A is a bad pilot with bad aim. Mech A throws out an AC20 shot. He was unable to actually train his reticle to the target, and was pointing high and to the right. However, due to the fact that he was high heat and running fast or whatever the triggers are for random aim, RNG worked its magic and the round does not go where he aimed and shot it, but flies to the lower left and smashes the opponents CT, winning the match. "Wouldn't it be great if more matches matches (and later planetary battles) were decided that way!" No. Nononononono.

One Medic Army, as far as the ad-hominem, I think it is relevant. The split on subjects such as this one is cleaved fairly strictly between players at the top who want the game to be as skill-based as possible, and mid or low level players who want some randomness to let them win some games/battles against the best players. Also involved are the tabletop grognards who are also bad at this game, but want the game to be more randomized for the sake of making it more like tabletop, which is even more depressing than mid/low level players wanting randomness to give them free wins. If you want randomness to give you wins, go play one of the other battletech-related games that lets a dice or a % determine whether you hit something or not. This game could be a great, difficult-to-master, high-skill-gap, strategic team FPS with a thriving competitive scene and a huge separation between the very best players and the average players. I hate when people want to insert RNG win gifts or insert other mechanics to make low/mid level players about as good as everyone else...not only does it make me mad, it makes me sad, because you are turning a game that can be into a game that could have been... and for what? So you can get some random wins vs players who by your own admission are better than you. What a sad and depressing state of affairs.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 26 May 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[keith]

One Medic Army, on 26 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Yes, I do want randomness to give bad players a chance to beat good players, because I like games where anything can happen.
We already have RNG to an extent, since its random who you're playing against, it's random what map you're on, and unless you're in an 8 man it's random who's on your team and what mechs they're in.

Here's the big thing, randomness allows for upsets, and upsets are the most exciting matches to play.

If there was never a need for randomness in FPS, explain why every single FPS of recent years has randomness. Even counter strike source had cones of fire for the inaccurate weapons.

Oh, and nice ad-homenim attack there, completely relevant to the discussion at hand I'm sure...

the RNG in here is ammo explosions. it is at 10% if u get that to crit with the proper ammo, bye bye mech. ow MR. cent u have srm ammo in your fat legs, bye bye half your mech. yes your can counter this by case, but many ppl don't use that /5 ton piece of equipment because of crit space/tonnage req.

[Ralgas]

The only issue i have with the rng aiming is we aren't all shooting the same size targets, be it cone of fire or mech sway to fix it there are disadvantages to the systems that have already been proven detrimental to the game.

Not even sure if jj shake is the right method although the multi wep heat penalty (timed to chain-fire delay) along with a heat adjustment to the uac might be a go assuming the penalty wasn't linear (ie added more heat per wep the more that were fired).

Edited by Ralgas, 26 May 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[Pht]

jay35, on 26 May 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Just a quick reminder that if you have issues with players always being able to hit what they properly aim at, which is normal in a first-person simulator/shooter like MWO, you might be better served by MechWarrior:Tactics, where the gameplay is much closer to tabletop, including pRNG (pseudo random number generation, i.e., representation of dice rolls) for whether your weapons fire hits its intended target. That removes player skill from the equation and leaves it up to "chance", which might be more to your liking.

I am getting so TIRED of this sort of lie being put on anyone who doesn't think that MWO is an FPS game.

Wanting battlemechs to handle their weapons in combat in MWO in the same way the do in the novels and in the rest of the BTU settings does not mean you want to "play tabletop in 3d" or "want non-skilled turn based play" or any other of that sort of dreck.

By the same disrespectful standard of judgement it could be said everyone who posts these sorts of underhanded strawmen and accuse them of wanting nothing more than yet another pretty face on wolfenstein 3d with no thinking required to play... but I know that's not true, because I care enough about what those who I disagree with think to know that that is not what they want.

Quote

However, to come here and demand this game be changed to inhibit player skill as the
primary factor in whether someone hits their target, ...

Nobody's arguing for this. Not even the COF fanatics (who I disagree with).

You don't even understand what you're arguing against.

The MW video game genre dictates that a person is in virtual first person real time control of a battlemech. NOT a stack of weapons that always magically aim exactly under the reticule.

Edited by Pht, 26 May 2013 - 02:13 PM.