73 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

LordBraxton, on 26 May 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

wow really simple answer here

lights go 130-149kph

if you are colliding with a heavier mech

IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT

I meant this more along the lines of, a jenner hitting an atlas, would do very little damage to the atlas, while the jenner would take full damage

comparing with an AC\20 makes no sense, a good shot can hit anyone with a 20

A good light pilot will only ever be tackled by other lights

Comparing it to other weapons (including the AC/20) makes perfect sense. Armor already makes small things die faster. Damage doesn't need to get multiplied against that which has less armor because lower armor means you can't withstand as much damage. Combining lowered health with increased damage taken is redundant and overkill. Making bigger things take reduced damage (combined having more armor) will just add more fuel to the arm's race of MWO. Apparently 33% heavies and assaults (individually; combined = 66%) just isn't enough.

I hate to disappoint many of the posters in this thread, but smashing your giant war machine into a slightly smaller war machine isn't going to repair your armor, refill your ammo, or give you a Lostech shield for 30 seconds. It will tear $#!t apart for both parties involved.

Edited by FupDup, 26 May 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[SuperJoe]

knock downs would be pretty cool. It would give mechs like the dragon and the charger (if they ever put that in here) some special use as tacklers or whatever.

They would have to add some videogamey aspects to it such as a cooldown after a knockdown.. like 10 seconds for that hunchback to waddle away after getting up from a knockdown or something so people don't get stun locked.

[Hoaggie]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 May 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I only voted for very much since I'm not sure what "I thirst for it like a man list in Tourmaline Desert (I Drive a dragon)"means...even though I drive a Dragon.

It's 92c on the Tourmaline Desert map, I imagine I would be thirsty there.


Also, people say the poll is biased, what option would you want?

[FupDup]

Hoaggie, on 26 May 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

It's 92c on the Tourmaline Desert map, I imagine I would be thirsty there.


Also, people say the poll is biased, what option would you want?

You could modify the parenthesis in the "Not at all" option to "(I don't think it adds anything to the game)". A whole new option should be "Only if it is tweaked to not be as abusable as last time".

[LordBraxton]

Hotthedd, on 26 May 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Except that physics would differ with your opinion. The Jenner would take more damage RELATIVE to the Atlas, but, assuming armor is hitting armor, the force (mass x velocity) would apply EQUALLY to both objects.

though the armor system in this game is points based (because it is a game obviously)

I would imagine the relative thickness of a heavier mech's armor\structure would absorb and deflect the impact much better than a smaller lighter mech's thin armor

the points system represents how lasers melt through said thick armor, and how high velocity ballistics shed the armor off in sheets

realistically however we would also assume than an AC\2 would shred a light mech, but do literally no damage to an atlas's frontal armor.

but thickness\penetration has never been a part of battletech so

IDK

I just want knockdowns back ASAP

FupDup, on 26 May 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Comparing it to other weapons (including the AC/20) makes perfect sense. Armor already makes small things die faster. Damage doesn't need to get multiplied against that which has less armor because lower armor means you can't withstand as much damage. Combining lowered health with increased damage taken is redundant and overkill. Making bigger things take reduced damage (combined having more armor) will just add more fuel to the arm's race of MWO. Apparently 33% heavies and assaults (individually; combined = 66%) just isn't enough.

I hate to disappoint many of the posters in this thread, but smashing your giant war machine into a slightly smaller war machine isn't going to repair your armor, refill your ammo, or give you a Lostech shield for 30 seconds. It will tear $#!t apart for both parties involved.

I am agreeing with you

but if an Atlas stomps into a jenner, I imagine the jenner in a heap and the atlas with some damage to it's leg actuators at worst

it would be cool if collisions would effect the critical system like that

wait, let me rephrase, it would be cool if we had a fully functioning critical system like that

[Hoaggie]

FupDup, on 26 May 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

You could modify the parenthesis in the "Not at all" option to "(I don't think it adds anything to the game)". A whole new option should be "Only if it is tweaked to not be as abusable as last time".

Nice

[Marj]

Loved getting kills from the ground after someone knocked me down and thought I was done for in MW4. Hopefully they'll allow that once they put collisions back in.

[GoatHILL]

I'm a jenner pilot and can't wait till we get knock downs back in game.

[NachoFoot]

FupDup, on 26 May 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

I hate to disappoint many of the posters in this thread, but smashing your giant war machine into a slightly smaller war machine isn't going to repair your armor, refill your ammo, or give you a Lostech shield for 30 seconds. It will tear $#!t apart for both parties involved.

Well, for one, you've got to stop Lights from doing whoohaas through heavy/assault mechs like they're just ghosts. If they're going to circle, they should circle and not fly through.

Edited by NachoFoot, 26 May 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[FupDup]

NachoFoot, on 26 May 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Well, for one, you've got to stop Lights from doing whoohaas through heavy/assault mechs like they're just ghosts. If they're going to circle, they should circle and not fly through.

AC/20 and Streak prevalence kinda already keep this in check (not to mention every other laser and large ballistic out there).


A revolutionary idea might be to have solid impacts between mechs that don't cause them to fall over. I know this sounds completely crazy if not insane, but I think it just might work. Both mechs would just have their throttle set to zero for a moment or two, take some damage, and have their reticule/cockpit shaked like a Mexican jumping bean (nearly impossible to aim for a few moments).

This removes abuses like Dragon bowling from the equation entirely and still lets lazy Fatlas drivers get an effortless kill if they encounter a light playing the game with a steering wheel at the lowest possible elo level (zero throttle for even a second is a death sentence for lights because "speed is life").

Edited by FupDup, 26 May 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[Squid von Torgar]

Those of you worried about it becoming an exploit or being abused are focusing on how knockdowns used to work and not how they should work.

In BT charge attacks cause damage to both the attacker and defender. So the mech that is charged takes 1 pt of damage for every 10 tons the charging mech weighs multiplied by the number of hexes it moved. (In MWO it would be a function of speed). The Charging mech takes 1 point of damage for every 10 tons the target weighs. This is then split into 5 point groups of damage and applied randomly across the mech. (I would assume that these values could be doubled given the armour doubling or not as the devs desired)

So you have your Dragon, lets say hes going at 75 kph, and he charges a Raven. The Dragon causes (6 x 8) 48 damage to the raven, divided into 5 point groups and spread across its body. The Dragon takes 4 damage.

Thats pretty nasty, but so far both mechs are still standing. The raven is obvioulsy knocked back and then both have a chance of falling over. In BT you make something known as a piloting roll, this is modified by a host of things, but for these purposes the key thing is the speed the mech is traveling. Suffice to say the Dragon is far more likely to fall over due to its speed. (How this would be handled in MWO requires some thought, I would offer that the mech falls in a certain direction and if you press the oposite movement key you stand a chance of canceling the fall, again this would be made harder/easier depending on what the mech was doing).

So now the Dragon falls and it takes 1 pt for every 10 tons so another 6 points. Also its on the ground, and has to get up again (which may result in another fall). Suffice to say its an easy target too. OK it did a lot of damage to the Raven, but its a risky tactic and not one that you could spam. The same goes for DFA attacks.

Note that a spider slamming into an atlas would at full speed (lets say 130 kph) would do 52 pts of damage to the atlas! However it would take 10 pts of damage itself, and again very likely be knocked over by the attack.

Collisions would be interesting and yes people could die from them, but it adds more to the game, it opens up other tactics to players and provided its handled rationally wouldn't be exploitable, instead just a desperate gamble, which is what mech hand to hand combat is all about.

Note I would also have mechs falling over for doing stupid things like trying to run up sheer cliffs, jumping off of buildings without JJ, running into walls etc. Provided that it wasn't automatic and depended on pilot skill to avoid it would add a whole new level to the game, wherein skilled players could pull off some crazy maneuvers whilst the less skilled would be forced either to take easier safer routes or run the risk of ending up on their back. Again the chances of success could be affected by mech type/weight/quirks or pilot lab unlocks or modules. We could even have gyros in our mechs (as per BT) that if damaged also affect the ability to remain upright.

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 27 May 2013 - 12:23 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Playing a light mech is no where near as fun as it was with knockdowns... getting an enemy Jenner on your tail, zooming and weaveing through the gauntlet of a hostile forces legs and zipping clear on the otherside while the friendly LRMs rained down was the most fun I had in this game with individual actions(though the Awesome Headshot Fiesta was fun too).

Bring it back so we can have that same rush... but with NARC!

[Spawnferkel]

Xeno Phalcon, on 26 May 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Im in the no for knockdowns corner because I played during that era and it wasnt fun at all, I remember getting punted by FREINDLY mechs before the fighting even began. And ramming into other lights was the best way to help a bigger mech that was being circled, rather then shooting the other light we just yelled ramming speed and tried to head butt them. Back then it wasnt always fatal due to lag you could slide and get up start running before some could get actual hits in but now if you bumped into someone you might as well just tab out cause it will immediately be game over especially as we can't (or at least couldnt then) fire back from a prone possition.

If enough effort was put into making it a reasonable function and not a game breaker then I wouldn't mind so much. I mean you speed a 35 ton mech up to 130kph and smash it into the leg of a atlas that would flatten and likely kill the pilot of the 35tonner but would also cripple the atlas and im sure if every nearly dead jenner could go all kamakaze and cause serious harm Im willing to bet the cries for nerfs would be deafening.

Devs think about this sort of stuff (well....usually) so at the end of the day collision might be more of a pain then its worth at this stage in the game, I mean how many of you out there are happy with lrms and srms right now?

Exactly my point. As long the system would be abusive in some way or another, there shouldn't be any collision between mechs. I remember the dragon-tractors, who were just lining up, ramming you, turn around and shoot you. Once you got back up, the same procedure happened again until you died to the amassed fire you couldn't evade due to the stunlock.

And being knocked down by friendlies was even more painful, because assaults never looked both ways before moving, and as a light you had a hard time hitting the brakes in case you were on collision course.

Although it is rewarding if you manage to knock down a light as an assault, I would rather see other aspects of the game fixed before PGI touches collisions again.

Quote

A revolutionary idea might be to have solid impacts between mechs that don't cause them to fall over. I know this sounds completely crazy if not insane, but I think it just might work. Both mechs would just have their throttle set to zero for a moment or two, take some damage, and have their reticule/cockpit shaked like a Mexican jumping bean (nearly impossible to aim for a few moments).

This removes abuses like Dragon bowling from the equation entirely and still lets lazy Fatlas drivers get an effortless kill if they encounter a light playing the game with a steering wheel at the lowest possible elo level (zero throttle for even a second is a death sentence for lights because "speed is life").

This would fix alot of issues I guess. The loss of speed and the potential damage should be enough to have an incentive not to ram into other things, but only if this system keeps players from being stunlocked again (i can see 2-3 dragons using this tactic on other singled out enemies). So maybe, if you received a charge and are suffering from it's effects, there could be a timer/cooldown that prevents you from being affected by yet another charge, so you have a chance to fight back.

Edited by Spawnferkel, 27 May 2013 - 01:06 AM.

[Eleshod]

I dread getting knocked down, then one-shotted through my rear armor by something running quad ppc's or tri-ppc and gauss.

So no, not till the insane alpha is fixed.

[Liberator]

Adding piloting checks, but making it easier for lighter mechs would balance it out some.

I really like the idea of piloting checks, and even gunnery skills, mechs could have skill tree's with some actual choices too make, rather than just "max everything" and max it on 2 other models, and get the elite skills and max them too.

[stjobe]

As a primarily light pilot, I'd love collision damage to be properly implemented (which would mean charging attacks and DFA as well).

I'm not too keen on knock-down though, because it was so freaking terrible when it was in. Get knocked down and you lost control of your 'mech for 2-5 seconds (depending on weight and other circumstances), 2-5 seconds in which every hostile around you could just line up their alphas.

It was a death-sentence 9 times out of 10 - so much so that people started running knock-down boats; big 'ol Dragons with the biggest engine they could fit and little else. All they did was knock enemies down for their team-mates.

So before knock-down is re-introduced, they need to figure out a way to do them without
1. It being a death sentence to lights
2. It being easily exploitable by knock-down boats.

Item 1 could be solved by not having the getting-up cinematic so long, and item 2 could perhaps be solved with increased collision damage - but collision damage was never very high for the charging unit in BT; while it should be equal it was (as Squid von Torgar pointed out above) very asymmetrical: (tonnage / 10) * speed for the charged 'mech and (target tonnage / 10) for the charging 'mech.

So a Dragon charging a Raven only takes 4 damage, while the Raven takes (6 * (speed / 10.8)) damage - making charging attacks quite powerful in their own right, and not really damaging to the charging 'mech, which in turns validates charging as a legitimate tactic when it should be a last-ditch attack.

I really think the game is poorer for not having collision and knock-downs, but I don't see a way to implement them properly without also getting back to the griefing that the old system had.

[NachoFoot]

FupDup, on 26 May 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

AC/20 and Streak prevalence kinda already keep this in check (not to mention every other laser and large ballistic out there).


A revolutionary idea might be to have solid impacts between mechs that don't cause them to fall over. I know this sounds completely crazy if not insane, but I think it just might work. Both mechs would just have their throttle set to zero for a moment or two, take some damage, and have their reticule/cockpit shaked like a Mexican jumping bean (nearly impossible to aim for a few moments).

This removes abuses like Dragon bowling from the equation entirely and still lets lazy Fatlas drivers get an effortless kill if they encounter a light playing the game with a steering wheel at the lowest possible elo level (zero throttle for even a second is a death sentence for lights because "speed is life").

That's an idea. There should still be some sort of knockdown though. MPBT had temporary knockdowns from legging an opponent. Also, it had permanent knockdowns from destroying both legs or the gyro, if I remember correctly.


Gamestorm/Kesmai was such a good company. I was subscribed when Electronic Arts bought the company just to dismantle it. I'll never forgive EA for that and I have shown them that much in my purchases.

[Hoaggie]

Eleshod, on 27 May 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

I dread getting knocked down, then one-shotted through my rear armor by something running quad ppc's or tri-ppc and gauss.

So no, not till the insane alpha is fixed.

That's no insane alpha, 6 PPC's is an insane alpha.

NachoFoot, on 27 May 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Gamestorm/Kesmai was such a good company. I was subscribed when Electronic Arts bought the company just to dismantle it. I'll never forgive EA for that and I have shown them that much in my purchases.

EA was the first company in history to be voted the worst company for two years running

[Noesis]

Be nice to see some alternative outcomes from collisions when knockdown is re-introduced, such that glancing blows or push backs or shoved to the side may also be a logical outcome to consider other than just a simplified predictable outcome that the heavier Mech knocks the lighter Mech down guaranteed each time.

Who knows by considering angles of attack and relative momentum to bias potential outcomes of the physical effects the working mechanics to help determine hit box interaction may actually be a helpful stepping stone in terms of working mechanics that could be improved upon later for melee related game play and/or just improving upon collision effects generally.

Edited by Noesis, 27 May 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[TheComet]

I'm a bit mixed on it, with the current damage I'm constantly harrassed by getting headbutted by every single ********* mech on the team in my light, and I walk into battles with a quarter of my leg armor missing already.

I do agree that SOMETHING should be there, they'll have to rework where the damage is allocated so it isn't just insta-crippled legs for everyone