103 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Reith Dynamis, on 27 May 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

The long range game was flawed. Everyone knows the lag and bugs when it came to MW3 if you played in a league. that game was nothing but short range engagements filled with AC 20, medium range laser, and streaks!

Apologies. I must be misremembering. I have played all the MW games online over the course of 20 years. Was it MW2/NetMech then that devolved into the camperfest?

Reith Dynamis, on 27 May 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Yours ideas of how lrms pilots think come from someone who has never used lrms. try again when you have some experience.

The come from someone who has spectated on LRM campers many times, and used LRM15s on my Stalker about a week ago. (Then I felt bored and went back to using weapons where I needed to see the enemy.)

By the way, I am not saying there should be no LRMs in the game. They have valid uses. It's the Assaults boating all game at the edge of the map that get my goat.

Edited by Appogee, 27 May 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Appogee, on 27 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Apologies. I must be misremembering. I have played all the MW games online over the course of 20 years. Was it MW2/NetMech then that devolved into the camperfest?

The come from someone who has spectated on LRM campers many times, and used LRM15s on my Stalker about a week ago. (Then I felt bored and went back to using weapons where I needed to see the enemy.)

So no experience then?

Gotcha!

Seriously "spectated" and used LRM's a few times? C'mon man. I use every weapon in the game so I can comment during these discussions.

Not just troll.

[Reith Dynamis]

Appogee, on 27 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Apologies. I must be misremembering. I have played all the MW games online over the course of 20 years. Was it MW2/NetMech then that devolved into the camperfest?

The come from someone who has spectated on LRM campers many times, and used LRM15s on my Stalker about a week ago. (Then I felt bored and went back to using weapons where I needed to see the enemy.)

I wouldn't recall, I played MW2 but don't remember it being an online game. maybe the later iteration maybe like mercs or the ghost bear expansion which i didn't play. But since you have 20 years of experience... what on line league did you play in with MW3 online?

[buttmonkey]

they are only low skill if all you put on your mech is lrm + ammo, no upgrades or anything else to use, but of course that has a big drawback, whereas if you have all the gear to go with them, lrms are hard to use but bring slightly better rewards. only slightly though lol. i just dont know what the weapon balancing team is doing. its like they are trying to hammer a tiny pin into a delicate jewelry box using a sledge hammer

[stjobe]

Reith Dynamis, on 27 May 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Well what i meant was that all weapons should have random hit locations like TT unless you have a targeting computer. I mean if people dont want lrms to hit the biggest area of a mech and hit all location like TT then direct fire weapons should follow the TT iteration as well.

Direct-fire weapons in TT have random hit locations, true. What they don't have, and missiles do have, is a variable number of hits.

An AC/20 does 20 damage to a single (random) location.
An LRM-20 does 6-20 damage to 2-4 (random) locations, with each individual hit being as low as 1 damage (and as high as 5).

They never were meant to be a precise weapon like the direct-fire weapons; they were always spreading their damage all over the target.

Now there's no way to aim LRMs in MWO, so having missiles spread all over the target make sense, both in that it emulates the variable number of missiles hitting, and that it emulates the random hit locations.

Making direct-fire weapons hit random locations does not make the same sense, since you're actively aiming those weapons - and with weapons like the LB-10X or the MG, you can see what giving direct-fire weapons random hit locations does; it makes them less useful.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

scJazz, on 26 May 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Dunno what is more astonishing... that it took that many LRMS or that the target stood still for long enough to fire that many?

Bcuz no1 gives a *** about LRMs.

[IceSerpent]

Tesfurdo, on 27 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

1. I'm presuming he means some weapons are never going to be first pick... but still have a use... like mg and flamers perhaps.

While I agree that this is probably what he means, that was not my question - the question was why would you want to artificially gimp something into a "support weapon"? In other words, what's the problem with not having any gimped weapons at all?

Quote

2. You answered your question within your question. I don't want to be "softened up" even slightly! XD

As far as LRMs are concerned, the easiest way to limit incoming damage is to get inside minimum range. So, instead of taking cover or seeking alternate route, it makes much more sense to just rush that LRM boat.

stjobe, on 27 May 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Direct-fire weapons in TT have random hit locations, true. What they don't have, and missiles do have, is a variable number of hits.

An AC/20 does 20 damage to a single (random) location.
An LRM-20 does 6-20 damage to 2-4 (random) locations, with each individual hit being as low as 1 damage (and as high as 5).

They never were meant to be a precise weapon like the direct-fire weapons; they were always spreading their damage all over the target.

You are missing a very important detail - LRMs in TT are not "support", they are primary weapon systems. If you are considering AC/20 vs. LRM20, you are basically making a choice between a short range slug-thrower and a long range "shotgun". Which one is better for a given build is very situational.

[Lightfoot]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

and a second lrms mech at base all targeting one mech. It took 390 of my LRM to moderately damage a Muromets CTF-IM Cataphract. It still was not killed until a third mech stepped in.

Artemis? check.
Line of sight? check.
Target in the open like a ding bat? check.
Did lrm volley land? check.
Did the target lack AMS? check.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The stars couldn't have lined up more perfectly, yet a trebuchet with 2 Artemis 15's won't ever do anything viable if lrms remain the way they are.

I have seen this too. I had to shelve my Trebuchet because LRMs just do nothing by themselves now. If I use LRMs now it's to back-up some other main damage weapon as a heat or weight balance to the config. BAP, Artemis, TAG, Adv Sensor, Adv Target Decay, all standard.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Lightfoot, on 27 May 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I have seen this too. I had to shelve my Trebuchet because LRMs just do nothing by themselves now. If I use LRMs now it's to back-up some other main damage weapon as a heat or weight balance to the config. BAP, Artemis, TAG, Adv Sensor, Adv Target Decay, all standard.

I brought up my LRM trebs,catas,Stalkers and awesomes for those 4 days off...and now I shelved them again.Useless mechs except Stalkers where you can make brawlers from them .

[Reith Dynamis]

Appogee, on 27 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

By the way, I am not saying there should be no LRMs in the game. They have valid uses. It's the Assaults boating all game at the edge of the map that get my goat.

I can agree with you there. I once said that any direct fire weapon that is more then 2 should face a accuacy/convergance penalty. large lasers boated more 2 should face a multiplied heat scale, more then 4 meduim lasers would do the same. PPC should face both. Lrms should face a farther spread when boated more then 2 of lrm 15's or 20's, and lrm 5 and 10's should face that when more then 3 are loaded on a mech.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 27 May 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Nightcrept]

The arguments seem to always come back to the stalker...lol.

Does anyone else notice this?

[ChallengerCC]

I played a round today with my HBK-4J (test mech) with:

2 - LRM 15 (720 missels)
3 -TAG
3 - smal lasers

on Canyon Network. I had 80 rockets left and 80% off them hit the targets with the 3 TAG mostly on it.

On the scoreboard i saw a number off 108 damage.
I only could laught. Can it be that there is a bug when you shoot while moving, or the accuracy is reduced dramaticly when doing so?

For now, LRMs are totaly underpowerd.

Is it so hard to get them balanced?
(please dont try to stick to the battletech rules its pointless, make a good emersion)

Thank
CCC

Edited by ChallengerCC, 27 May 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

and a second lrms mech at base all targeting one mech. It took 390 of my LRM to moderately damage a Muromets CTF-IM Cataphract. It still was not killed until a third mech stepped in.

Artemis? check.
Line of sight? check.
Target in the open like a ding bat? check.
Did lrm volley land? check.
Did the target lack AMS? check.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The stars couldn't have lined up more perfectly, yet a trebuchet with 2 Artemis 15's won't ever do anything viable if lrms remain the way they are.

Were one of you more than 1000m away? If so, it could LOOK like the missiles were hitting, but they may have been exploding before contact.

[Reith Dynamis]

I was not out of range, I started out behind his six'oclock at roughly 250-300 meter until he got closer to the bridge infront of the fortress making it about 450- 550 m from me. essentially the enemy mech was where on of the resource deposits would be if it wasn't an 8v8 or capture base mode. and both shots were registering from me and him cause he refused to use cover of the bridge before he started heading just west to the top city across from the air base.

I know you think everyone who plays lrm is a noob but that attitude never address's issues or balances a game.

[Waking One]

Wanting any weapon to be useless or op means you're a terrible low skill player too though and can't adapt.

LRMs and SRMs are **** atm, they need some buffing. You can safely ignore them most of the time.

I feel like the biggest problem for this game's balance is the stalker with the crazy number of hardpoints making boating too easy tbh. Until then it wasn't nearly as much of a problem (even the streakcat wasn't as bad really).

Edited by Waking One, 27 May 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Reith Dynamis]

i just got testing grounds and checked the distance for the other lrm mech from airbase. the longest shot he could have make was just over 600 not beyond 700. When the enemy mech was destroyed it was only 400 meter away from mech at air base.

The longest shot for me was 500 meter towards then end of its life. is started shooting at it 250 meter.

BTW, if missile spread is so bad while would the mechs in testing grounds take damage on arms and sides if i was firing from their left or right? If we're going to complain about ct damage when its directly looking at you then i have nothing to say to those people then get real.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 27 May 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[stjobe]

IceSerpent, on 27 May 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

You are missing a very important detail - LRMs in TT are not "support", they are primary weapon systems. If you are considering AC/20 vs. LRM20, you are basically making a choice between a short range slug-thrower and a long range "shotgun". Which one is better for a given build is very situational.

I don't think I commented one way or the other on the "support weapon" thing; for the record, I don't think there is (and certainly shouldn't be) such a thing in the BT universe.

There are 'mechs whose primary role is LRM delivery; for me as an old BT fan, the Archer comes immediately to mind. Their intended role of LRM delivery means their LRMs are their primary weapon system.

The "support weapon" idea is ultimately flawed in that "support" is not a weapon system, it is a combat role that can be carried out with both indirect and direct fire, by missiles, slugs, or bolts of energy. And as with any combat role, most 'mechs are supposed and expected to be able to switch between them at will during combat.

[SmoothCriminal]

Back in the CB, I used to think LRMs were OP. Then I discovered buildings. That said, if LRMs were fixed back to their normal values (whatever that means at the moment), a good team can suppress an enemy by using them.

buff lurms and srems pls

[cyberFluke]

jeffsw6, on 26 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

I think there is actually something new that is wrong with LRMs. It has probably been wrong for a week, but was masked by splash damage being over-powered.

I'm not an ***** or a bad player. I tried them out in a 4-man that was basically 3 LRM boats plus a brawler right after the hotfix. These other guys are not idiots or bad either. We won our matches, but it took all three of us firing volley after volley into some opponent mechs, with clear LOS and no cover, to kill them. Other mechs went down easily. It doesn't really make sense.

This isn't going to get addressed until some player makes a video.

I believe you. I think it may be related to Ballistics (and Lasers) not doing dmg on a hit from your POV. I still regularly have shots against stationary assaults not count and I still have to lag lead lights (even with lasers) sometimes. Just like the old days. This suggests some sort of desync from the server, or more likely, that the server can't keep up, ie. underpowered server hardware.

[Epicedion]

Two very important things:

1) LRMs are not really supposed to be indirect weapons. Indirect LRMs are as inaccurate as all hell unless someone's NARCing or TAGing for you, at which point they're just inaccurate. Movement, cover, and blipping in and out of radar contact make them unreliable.

2) Direct LRM fire is fantastically useful if you can remember to watch your ranges in a firefight. They should really be used somewhere in the 200-600m range, at about the same time as your ER/LLs and PPCs become useful. Furthermore, and I don't see a lot of people utilizing this, LRMs have the option of unguided fire. If you pull the trigger on an LRM, the missiles arc to whatever's under your reticle (except they won't track a moving target) on their direct-fire trajectory (low arc). What this means is you can drop a tight cluster of LRMs on a big, slow, or powered down target without much of a problem -- it's a little harder to use than an SRM pack due to distance and missile speed, but you don't get the spastic spread of the SRM launchers.