21 replies to this topic

[Chopsaw]

Here's a comparison for you:

On River City, in the trench entrance without the bridges, facing the ship at a stand-still:

Jenner, 35 tons with 5 JJ's:
4 second JJ burn
Barely makes it above the lip of the trench

Catapult, 65 tons with 4 JJ's
4 second JJ burn
Barely makes it above the lip of the trench

This is why JJ's favor heavy mechs and poptarters. JJ's aren't used for escape or highly precise maneuvering on heavier mechs; they're used to pop over obstacles or very basic turning, shoot, and repeat. Since light mechs get the same performance as heavy mechs, they get the same benefit in spite of being incredibly lighter and having MORE JJ's equipped.

The initial lift of JJ's needs to be quicker on lighter mechs instead of the same slow climb seen on heavier mechs. I miss playing my jenner since JJ's were "fixed", but spending 2.5 tons on JJ's and NOT being able to use them to maneuver effectively kills the build.

[AnnoyingCat]

using JJs to fly? what?

[LordBraxton]

Mechcommander had the best JJs

you couldn't even fire while jumping

but they moved you fast as hell and a great damn distance

most mechs are supposed to have a jump range of 90-270

in this game it is like 22-28

Edited by LordBraxton, 27 May 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Chopsaw]

LordBraxton, on 27 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Mechcommander had the best JJs
you couldn't even fire while jumping
but they moved you fast as hell and a great damn distance

Actually, the utter slowness of JJ's helps poptarters...nice 'n slow up -> line up your shot -> fire! It'd be a bit different if you had to control the amount of JJ thrust and its pitch.

[Corvus Antaka]

LordBraxton, on 27 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

but they moved you fast as hell and a great damn distance

most mechs are supposed to have a jump range of 90-270

in this game it is like 22-28

This is really needed. if jumpjets could be used to dodge LRMS, would push mechs up much higher initially and where faster the game could be a lot more dynamic, spiders could out jump SSRMS, sniping would be tougher, and DFA would be a lot more fun.

This game is still lacking the visceral "rush" that games like Tribes have, jumpjets like this would help a lot.

[Sug]

Try using less jets. I know it "says" that the distance is reduced but I run just 2 JJs in my Catapult and I can't tell the difference.

[Livewyr]

Lightmech JJ = .5 ton.
Heavy Mech JJ = 1 ton.

Heavier duty, so the difference shouldn't be as drastic as you seem to think it should be. (And light mech JJs are more responsive.)

[Chopsaw]

Livewyr, on 27 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Lightmech JJ = .5 ton.
Heavy Mech JJ = 1 ton.

Heavier duty, so the difference shouldn't be as drastic as you seem to think it should be. (And light mech JJs are more responsive.)

Wrong on both accounts. Lightmech JJ weight is pretty even with heavier mech's JJ's:

Jenner, 35 ton mech with .5 ton JJs: 1.4% mechweight per JJ
Catapult, 65 ton mech with 1 ton JJs: 1.5% mechweight per JJ

Now sure, for a Highlander, this goes up to 2.2% mechweight, but you also have 55 more tons to play with.

As far as more responsive? Did you see my test up there comparing 5 Jenner JJ's with 4 catapult JJ's? Exact same response: 4 second burn for the same height.

[Livewyr]

Chopsaw, on 27 May 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Wrong on both accounts. Lightmech JJ weight is pretty even with heavier mech's JJ's:

Jenner, 35 ton mech with .5 ton JJs: 1.4% mechweight per JJ
Catapult, 65 ton mech with 1 ton JJs: 1.5% mechweight per JJ

Now sure, for a Highlander, this goes up to 2.2% mechweight, but you also have 55 more tons to play with.

As far as more responsive? Did you see my test up there comparing 5 Jenner JJ's with 4 catapult JJ's? Exact same response: 4 second burn for the same height.

So, given your math (since I'm too lazy to calculate it for myself at the moment) that the two different JJ systems are roughly equivalent in ratio to full tonnage (1.5%-1.4% = .1%)

Why should there be a significant difference?


(EDIT: For clarity, if the Catapult had Light mech JJ's, I could see a reasonable disparity.)

Edited by Livewyr, 27 May 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Chopsaw]

Livewyr, on 27 May 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

So, given your math (since I'm too lazy to calculate it for myself at the moment) that the two different JJ systems are roughly equivalent in ratio to full tonnage (1.5%-1.4% = .1%)

Why should there be a significant difference?


(EDIT: For clarity, if the Catapult had Light mech JJ's, I could see a reasonable disparity.)

Because the claim was made that heavy mech JJ's are more heavy-duty and therefore weigh more, which brings them into balance. My point is that they weigh the same when viewed as % of the mech's weight so it would stand to reason that a 35 ton jenner with FIVE JJ's should be able to "out-jump" a Catapult with only FOUR. This isn't the case...they have identical performance.

[Monkeystador]

I agree to the general motion of this topic. JJs are dull, nothing special. Lots of power and range, a massive permanent JJ shake, long and drastic decrease in aim precision ( weapons would not shoot where you aim anymore instead of some screen shake) would a different way for JJs. Certainly an insteresting idea.

I would support it 100%.

Currently the game has 0 scenarios where JJs are of explicit need. If you could jump high or far then big walls or natural obstacles, deep rivers ( which should slow movement speed) or small canyons would be come interesting terrain features.

Currently there is only jump sniping, as you get to most terrain by walking anyway. Jump sniping is rather a boring use for what JJs could be really used.

Edit: grammer

Edited by Monkeystador, 27 May 2013 - 11:18 PM.

[Artgathan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 May 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

This is really needed. if jumpjets could be used to dodge LRMS, would push mechs up much higher initially and where faster the game could be a lot more dynamic, spiders could out jump SSRMS, sniping would be tougher, and DFA would be a lot more fun.

This game is still lacking the visceral "rush" that games like Tribes have, jumpjets like this would help a lot.

While cool in theory (Armored Core IV / V does this well with 'quick boosts'), it would just make mechs with jump jets the defacto kings of the battlefield, since the increases maneuverability would make them more able to dodge all kinds of weapons fire. If they had to pause for a second at the end of the jump (IE: stand still for a heartbeat for two) it might be balanced, but it would still confer a hell of an advantage.

[Corvus Antaka]

Artgathan, on 27 May 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

While cool in theory (Armored Core IV / V does this well with 'quick boosts'), it would just make mechs with jump jets the defacto kings of the battlefield, since the increases maneuverability would make them more able to dodge all kinds of weapons fire. If they had to pause for a second at the end of the jump (IE: stand still for a heartbeat for two) it might be balanced, but it would still confer a hell of an advantage.

Just like the do in btech - an advantage to not being hit vs an advantage to sniping. if they tossed you up high and fast it would increase yur risk at those apex points

that is the whole point of jumpjets in TT.

I mainly feel not enough hieght is present. i always feel like im crawling up walls and buildings, not jumping around.

jumpjets where amazing in btech 3025, you really vaulted and it was awesome, they made you harder to hit during the vault, exposed you during the apex, and made it very challenging to shoot while in the air.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 27 May 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Doomstryke]

I run 1 jump jet on my jenner to allow me to run straight, just turn around fire full laser blast and turn back facing forward, u don't get much lift but you get distance. Run same thing with 4 or more and you instantly jump off the ground. I notice a big difference

Also try taking a run from the middle part of river city to land on the buildings of lower city start point. Jenner makes it catapult does not.

And if you are still uncertain take a catapult and try jumping on frozen city from the ground into the caves from the sigma side, way easier to make the jump with 4 vs 2 or 3

[Chopsaw]

Artgathan, on 27 May 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

While cool in theory (Armored Core IV / V does this well with 'quick boosts'), it would just make mechs with jump jets the defacto kings of the battlefield, since the increases maneuverability would make them more able to dodge all kinds of weapons fire. If they had to pause for a second at the end of the jump (IE: stand still for a heartbeat for two) it might be balanced, but it would still confer a hell of an advantage.

Not a bad point...extreme JJ use should cause at least stumble and in more extreme cases a fall -- ie, speed, turning, and firing while in the air. New pilot skills could mitigate the chances, as well as not trying to do to much.

[LordBraxton]

it should feel like a great big leap,



not a slow burning hover

Edited by LordBraxton, 28 May 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[GuardDogg]

Unless their is the best shock absorbers under the cockpit seat when landing in a light mech will help jump higher and not missing a shot during the shaking.

[MasterErrant]

Chopsaw, on 27 May 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Here's a comparison for you:

On River City, in the trench entrance without the bridges, facing the ship at a stand-still:

Jenner, 35 tons with 5 JJ's:
4 second JJ burn
Barely makes it above the lip of the trench

Catapult, 65 tons with 4 JJ's
4 second JJ burn
Barely makes it above the lip of the trench

This is why JJ's favor heavy mechs and poptarters. JJ's aren't used for escape or highly precise maneuvering on heavier mechs; they're used to pop over obstacles or very basic turning, shoot, and repeat. Since light mechs get the same performance as heavy mechs, they get the same benefit in spite of being incredibly lighter and having MORE JJ's equipped.

The initial lift of JJ's needs to be quicker on lighter mechs instead of the same slow climb seen on heavier mechs. I miss playing my jenner since JJ's were "fixed", but spending 2.5 tons on JJ's and NOT being able to use them to maneuver effectively kills the build.

I see you point but bigger mechs use bigger jets. and the more you have the faster higher you go... the devs have said a jj fix in in the trck too.

[Corvus Antaka]

hopefully in the future

[Chopsaw]

MasterErrant, on 28 May 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

I see you point but bigger mechs use bigger jets. and the more you have the faster higher you go... the devs have said a jj fix in in the trck too.

Yeah, hopefully...I haven't seen anything that would indicate a fix is in the works.

Again, bigger mechs DO have bigger JJ's. But, and again, the percentage of the mech's weight the JJ consumes is in the same ballpark. Tonnage consumption is key. Just like everything in this game, the smaller components are more efficient, dps and heat-wise. So four Jenner JJ's should be more efficient than four Catapult JJ's, but they're not. You need FIVE Jenner JJ's just to MATCH the performance of FOUR Catapult JJ's.

That Jenner should be practically flying with five JJ's. Hell, put reticule shake in, I don't care as I don't poptart in a light mech...I escape (or would like to) in a light mech with my JJ's.