48 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well, the 6 MG Spider suddenly sounds viable!

But seriously though, I think there is a hidden middle finger somewhere.



This should resemble something between two epic movies... Half Baked and Office Space.

I've been watching the show "The Office" lately, and I think "This could be similar", but then i realize that they are actually successful in the show.

But I can definitely see Bryan being Michael. And Garth as Dwight.

[Chavette]

Nice to see people actually doing their best to find their own way instead of just complaining.

Oh and about the 1v1 highlander part, I'll catch you on your word one day, I have great name memory....

[Alternate22]

Garth Erlam, on 28 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Not sure if you got my message, but I did, in fact, forward this

Many thanks Garth, really appreciate it

stjobe, on 28 May 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

So that leaves... The JM6-DD as the only 'mech that should use MGs as a primary weapon.

Unfortunately, at this time yes - they are the only ones which can make effective use of them as they are now.

From 28 May 2013 - 12:00 PM:

CTF-1X, ILYA, JM6-S, DRG-5N, HBK-4G


SDR-5K, CDA-3C, RVN-4X, CDA-3M, BJ1, BJ1-DC, CN9-A, CN9-D, WANG, HBK-4H, TBT-7K, DRG-1C, DRG-1N, FANG, FLAME, CPLT-K2, JM6-A, CTF-1X, CTF-2X, CTF-3D, MISERY, HGN-732, HGN-733, HGN-733C, HEAVY METAL, AS7-D, AS7-D-DC, AS7-K, AS7-RS

So... Out of 35 'mechs capable of mounting MGs, 29 shouldn't, 5 could as secondary, and a single 'mech can use it as primary, did I understand you right?

Perfectly right. There are a large number of mechs where a single MG or even 4 MGs are not viable currently due to the mentioned problems with projectile speed, cone of fire and the inconsistent delivery of damage.

From 28 May 2013 - 12:00 PM:

Anyone else thinks it's okay to give the JM6-DD a bit more oomph to the 6MG+2ERLL build if it means the MG gets to be viable for at least some of those 29 'mechs above?

As much as i hate to say it, you do not want to do that.. The J-DD has an effective 9DPS right now. A buff beyond 1.2 DPS AND all the fixes to speed, cone of fire and damage hits would put it far, far, far beyond the problem of the AC40 Jag. The AC40 Jag is at least vulnerable to an XL problem and is slow. A 6MG Jag with over 1.2 DPS is basically an AC40 Jag that goes 82 KPH, has a standard engine, BAP, AMS, full armor and enough heat sinks to keep pounding you at the top of the Caldera non-stop. Its like buffing PPCs and in turn buffing the Hexa PPC stalker. One mech to rule them all, flavor of the months, etc. except we can actually avoid that here.

Quote

Especially the lights that don't have the capability to put anything else in their ballistic slots.

Which is why the three fixes I suggested, a, b and c, need to be implemented first. Proper damage registration (fixing the firing rate), proper ability to aim at high speeds (projectile speed) and more accurate usability by light mechs (cone of fire). The first fix alone will boost the DPS, likely making the 4 MG lights able to use it as primary weapons instead of supplements. The second and the third will make it viable to use even at high speeds. THEN and only then if its still not enough, boost it up to 1.2 DPS.

Chavette, on 28 May 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Nice to see people actually doing their best to find their own way instead of just complaining.

Oh and about the 1v1 highlander part, I'll catch you on your word one day, I have great name memory....

I'm game for this whenever you are. Unfortunately I have poor memory so I may miss out on your callout. Maybe it can be done on an arena night?

[Carrioncrows]

It's threads like this that make want to wash my hands of ever attempting to make this game better.

20+ Threads on people wanting to make MGun better and the 1 thread with the crazy that swears up and down they are viable gets attention.

Secondary weapons, Supplementary weapons, Backup weapons, Crit-Seeking weapons, light weapons. Imaginary weapons.

XXXX that!

How about we just make it a weapon like everything else in this game and go from there.

Dmg: 0.2 a Shot and 0.1 from 90m-200m
ROF: 10 shots a sec
AMMO: 400 rounds per ton and 200 rounds per 1/2 ton.

Simple, Easy and it gives us a few years to enjoy it until we revisit it with light machine guns and Heavy machine guns.

[Chavette]

You mean the comstar arena night? I'm pretty jealous of-d around here so doubt I'd get a fair match, lol.

[aniviron]

Don't get me wrong, it's good advice. But what it boils down to is, "Never get into fights that are disadvantageous for you, and never fight more than one mech at a time." Well sure, but that's great advice for every single weapons system in the game. What makes mg worse than, say, an ER PPC or Gauss Rifle is that both of those weapons mean that if you make even a slight piloting error and wind up facing two opponents or someone not in your optimal range bracket, you can still win. You'll win harder if you stick to 1v1s inside your best range bracket, but unlike mg, most other weapons can still pull wins out of bad situations.

I don't think a weapon is good if the way to be good with it is "never make a mistake, pilot perfectly all the time." If I could pilot perfectly all the time I would just use a better build and get four kills a match instead.

[Zaptruder]

ITT:

Players; ERLLs are decent, and player skill is OP.

PGI; Finally! Proof that MGs are OP!

[Voidcrafter]

I'm very happy about you being so enthusiastic...
BUT

I prefer to make my point with facts instead of words



I'm not saying you CAN'T find usage of the machine gun, I'm just saying that any other weapon in the game could do way better job
But for the people, who actually go crazy about this weapon I recommend this guide.
(And I hope to meet you on the battlefield... on the oposite team of course )

[Kmieciu]

Ok, so Alternate22 proved that double ERLL is a decent brawling weapon. May he show us his stats?
What's his average damage per match for ERLL and for Machineguns?

Because I score 5,6 damage per match with machineguns; 48,1 damage per match with small lasers and 280,4 damage per match with ER Large lasers.

Edited by Kmieciu, 29 May 2013 - 04:04 AM.

[Alternate22]

Well, since stats count more than words and experience, I suppose stats will it will be then. I am a man of science, first and foremost.

To up the gauntlet and ante, I'll switch to a 100% MG + Flamer Jaegermech-DD and record the stats of every game I play in an open excel sheet, along with screenshots of end of round stats. My goal will be 100 matches. With just flamers and MGs. The sample size should give a much better portrayal and division of player skill and weapons. How does that sound?

As for ER LL stats, I can give them but they wont be accurate - I've used ERLL on my hunchbacks and Cicadas before, so not sure if that would skewer the stats. I'll post them on here anyway if wanted.

Edited by Alternate22, 29 May 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Alternate22, on 29 May 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Well, since stats count more than words and experience, I suppose stats will it will be then. I am a man of science, first and foremost.

To up the gauntlet and ante, I'll switch to a 100% MG + Flamer Jaegermech-DD and record the stats of every game I play in an open excel sheet, along with screenshots of end of round stats. My goal will be 100 matches. With just flamers and MGs. The sample size should give a much better portrayal and division of player skill and weapons. How does that sound?

As for ER LL stats, I can give them but they wont be accurate - I've used ERLL on my hunchbacks and Cicadas before, so not sure if that would skewer the stats. I'll post them on here anyway if wanted.

I seriously doubt you have the endurance to play 100 matches armed with two of the worst weapons in game.
How about taking 2 small lasers along with those 6 machine guns? I am almost certain that you will do more damage per match with the lasers.

An you don't even have to make a spreadsheet. Just take a screenshot of your current stats, play those 100 games and subtract the damage and number of matches from the screenshot from your current stats.


Here are the weapons I've used in more than 100 games:

weapon \ matches \ damage \ damage per match
AC/20 197 55437 281,4
MEDIUM LASER 209 25375 121,4
LARGE LASER 136 18938 139,25
PPC 200 51438 257,19
GAUSS RIFLE 223 30832 138,26
SRM 6 103 11362 110,31

Edited by Kmieciu, 29 May 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Alternate22, on 28 May 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

c) The Cone of Fire is too wide: The cone of fire on machine guns needs to be much, much lower so they can actually be used in a precision context. Having most of hte DPS splash away from the curser takes away the skill of aiming precisely where you need it to be. They do, admittedly, serve a decent use when it comes to legging lights. I would however recommend a reduction of at least 50% if at al possible.

I actually think spread should go away, last MG test I did targeting the Atlas on Training Grounds, I noticed 50%+ of my shots had spread hitting the LT when I aimed at the CT, based on the paper doll I figure 0.01 - 0.02 damage lost per shot so this may affect item A resulting in 50%+ of your shots as a 0.06 - 0.07 damage weapon. At 2000 shots per ton, halve that then multiply by damage lost means in 1 ton of ammo you lose between 10-20 damage on target.

Alternate22, on 28 May 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

And thats about it. I'll be editing up a full video on one of my MG matches later if I can.

Video/screenshots work better than typed posts, this has been proven twice now.

[Alternate22]

Kmieciu, on 29 May 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

I seriously doubt you have the endurance to play 100 matches armed with two of the worst weapons in game.
How about taking 2 small lasers along with those 6 machine guns? I am almost certain that you will do more damage per match with the lasers.

An you don't even have to make a spreadsheet. Just take a screenshot of your current stats, play those 100 games and subtract the damage and number of matches from the screenshot from your current stats.

I much prefer the excel record, because it's easier to have it all summed up in there than elsewhere - plus stats are a fun thing to fiddle around with.

As for the small lasers; a good comparison point perhaps. But in that same logic I can take ER LLs with my current damage and subtract the damage at the end of 100 matches. I'd much rather than the flamers than the small lasers though, as the overheat works in synergy to the no heat of the MGs.

I've already done 400 games with the 'worst' weapon in the game and still have fun regularly, 100 more will make no more difference.

[Kmieciu]

I`m not even sure if the flamers actually work. I asked my teammate to spray me with flamers for about 30 seconds and my heat gauge did not move. Maybe the friendly fire is disabled?

[Alternate22]

Kmieciu, on 29 May 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I`m not even sure if the flamers actually work. I asked my teammate to spray me with flamers for about 30 seconds and my heat gauge did not move. Maybe the friendly fire is disabled?

I believe you do take some reduced damage when it comes to friendly fire. I'm not entirely sure though - I havent had a chance to use flamers post patch. I'll trial it out a few rounds, if it doesn't seem to be working I'll swap it out for the SLAS's before I begin the 100 rounds proper.

Edited by Alternate22, 29 May 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Alternate22]

In the objective of sharing information and data, I have started this endeavor full bore. 100 matches, 10 matches a night (more like 15 given half are disconnects). I've logged down data and screenshots after every fight though and the overall sheet can be found here for any stats folks that'd like it:

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

For reference this is the build I'm using, for good or for ill:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ba1f60c607a0e3d

I will post an update every night on progress. So far, 10/100 matches are complete.

If you see me in a fight and get flamed by me (by the flamers, not literally) PLEASE, PLEASE give feedback on how your heat was affected. It appears that flamers are not as effective as the messages says on the tin and more data collected on this would be incredibly helpful.

Edit: did 14 matches. Should effectively work now, hopefully.

Edited by Alternate22, 29 May 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[HRR Mary]

Alternate22, on 28 May 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

...snip...
It isn't - except it was accomplished only using MGs/ERLL and a very small gameplay timeframe in which to accomplish it (and a very tiny pool of people given I play at prime times EU). So yes, I would say it is worth something when I can do it as a mediocre player that otherwise placed >100 in the last tournament.
...snip...

Just a clarification, given your playtime, you are not facing the best opposition. I am playing both at EU time, and US time, and the competition is much, much, more fierce on average in US time.

On average I placed 35-50 in the previous 7-day tournament during EU time, only to be pushed back to 150-300 while playing US time.

[Hayashi]

Moved to Mech guides. Was considering Heavy Guides since the Jager may be the only chassis that can use it, but it has some info in a general context as well. Title fixed upon request.

[JigglyMoobs]

This thread is a reminder of why I shoot Jaegers first, on sight, as a matter of policy.

So, have you tried primarily aiming for headshots with this setup? With 6 mgs, it seems you could chew through head armor pretty quickly if you keep your crosshair pinned on the cockpit.

[Deathlike]

It's very difficult to get a bead on moving mechs with MGs... the cone of fire would not allow you to opportunity.