25 replies to this topic

[Demosthones]

There is a problem in the meta right now. Maybe you heard? There are too many PPC builds boating 3+ PPCs. There is an upcomming nerf to poptarts with the implementation of jump jet shake. But any decent pilot can just shoot on the way down and it is going nerf all those lights that depend on JJ for survival as well.

PGI quit taking a shotgun approach to fixing problems and nerf it with precision instead.

Solution:
MAKE PPC AND ERPPC TAKE UP 4 SLOTS INSTEAD OF 3.

You cant boat a lot of them or you will run out of crit slots. Problem solved.

Opinions?

[Victor Morson]

How to fix PPC boating:

Put a weight/BV limit on matches so not everyone and the grandmother and her knitting club are driving PPC boat 'mechs.

If you want to boat PPCs in a medium, be my guest.

--

Seriously people, high-alpha boats aren't the issue, it's that EVERYONE is driving assaults. This isn't even debatable.

[Demosthones]

Victor Morson, on 28 May 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

How to fix PPC boating:

Put a weight/BV limit on matches so not everyone and the grandmother and her knitting club are driving PPC boat 'mechs.

If you want to boat PPCs in a medium, be my guest.

--

Seriously people, high-alpha boats aren't the issue, it's that EVERYONE is driving assaults. This isn't even debatable.

They are in those assaults cause they dish out monster amounts of damage in a match... wait for it... by having huge alphas.

If you make it take up 4 slots instead of 3 it eliminates all those large XL engines and 2+ PPCs in the chest. The HGN-732 would only fit 1 Gauss and 2 PPCs instead of 3.

Edited by Demosthones, 28 May 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[MasterErrant]

as always the fix is to put in the proper heat system

[HRR Mary]

ahem, while some points are valid (heat, Weight/BV system), the main issue with multiple weapons grouped together is the Pinpoint convergence, allowing them to become "super weapons" (PPC 40, AC40, Gauss 30, MedLas40).

[Sephlock]

Demosthones, on 28 May 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

There is a problem in the meta right now. Maybe you heard? There are too many PPC builds boating 3+ PPCs. There is an upcomming nerf to poptarts with the implementation of jump jet shake. But any decent pilot can just shoot on the way down and it is going nerf all those lights that depend on JJ for survival as well.

PGI quit taking a shotgun approach to fixing problems and nerf it with precision instead.

Solution:
MAKE PPC AND ERPPC TAKE UP 4 SLOTS INSTEAD OF 3.

You cant boat a lot of them or you will run out of crit slots. Problem solved.

Opinions?

I'm fine with this so long as

1: Only Founders get to use Clan mechs

2: You forfeit any right to complain about Clan tech when it arrives.

[HarmAssassin]

As usual the 800 lbs elephant in the room is the broken (non-existent) penalty for overheating. If you simply make real penalties for overheating, you automatically fix all the "fire once, overheat, then fire again" builds.

No need to mess with convergence (that affects all mechs even those not boating PPCs).
No need to mess with increasing crit slots of weapons (which penalizes every mech using them not just the boaters).

Notice a pattern here? If you want to use 6 of the highest heat generating weapons in the game (that also have the longest range and highest damage)... then you need to risk blowing yourself up if you keep firing them.

That is the ONLY way this problem will EVER be solved.

[StonedVet]

they already have a fix coming. Different heat mechanics when boating more of the same weapon AND adding internal damage after passing the 100% heat threshold by certain amounts etc. Its all in the works so bare with the boating for now.

[WhupAzz]

What is it the cool kids say round here? ... Oh yeah ...

This thread is new and exciting!

[Rytheo]

I think the solution should be in making other weapons better and more fun to use instead of just nerfing PPCs into the ground. If you nerf PPC's the meta is just gonna settle on a different weapon, if you buff other weapons up to that level alternatives become available and the game might right itself.

[Renthrak]

I hate to be a combo breaker, but you're pretty much all right to a degree. What contributes to the current state of the game is:

Prevalence of Assault 'Mechs.
Prevalence of massive Alpha Strikes as the primary mode of combat.
Inadequate heat penalties / heat scale not harsh enough.
Too easy to focus damage on one spot.
Inadequate matchmaking resulting in disproportionate success of 'cheese builds'.

Fixing any one of those issues will simply shift the weight of the problem to the remaining ones, and little will actually improve. Far-reaching changes are necessary to get us out of this hole we've dug for ourselves.

[JSparrowist]

HarmAssassin, on 28 May 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

As usual the 800 lbs elephant in the room is the broken (non-existent) penalty for overheating. If you simply make real penalties for overheating, you automatically fix all the "fire once, overheat, then fire again" builds.

No need to mess with convergence (that affects all mechs even those not boating PPCs).
No need to mess with increasing crit slots of weapons (which penalizes every mech using them not just the boaters).

Notice a pattern here? If you want to use 6 of the highest heat generating weapons in the game (that also have the longest range and highest damage)... then you need to risk blowing yourself up if you keep firing them.

That is the ONLY way this problem will EVER be solved.

TRUTH!

We really need some fixes to the heat issue.. To bad it'll take PGI 6 months to sledge-hammer balance into left field again and create more problems than they solve.

[Junkman7mgte]

Ren, while I agree with all you mentioned, heat penalties/scale, should be first and foremost " this coming from a relative newb to "this" Mechwarrior, kinda like an outsider looking in deal "

Major heat will slow down the Alpha strikes, fewer alpas will change loadouts, so damage focus drops. With those happening, we should see more variance in mech size, as more become viable builds at that point. That, in turn, brings back people that quit, not all, but some, retains new players easier, with make the matchmaking better, because we have a larger pool to draw from.

[Renthrak]

Junkman7mgte, on 28 May 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Ren, while I agree with all you mentioned, heat penalties/scale, should be first and foremost " this coming from a relative newb to "this" Mechwarrior, kinda like an outsider looking in deal "

Don't worry, I didn't make my list in order of importance. I have something for many of these issues:

http://mwomercs.com/...out-randomness/

http://mwomercs.com/...ce-first-draft/

[Und3rSc0re]

Demosthones, on 28 May 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

There is a problem in the meta right now. Maybe you heard? There are too many PPC builds boating 3+ PPCs. There is an upcomming nerf to poptarts with the implementation of jump jet shake. But any decent pilot can just shoot on the way down and it is going nerf all those lights that depend on JJ for survival as well.

PGI quit taking a shotgun approach to fixing problems and nerf it with precision instead.

Solution:
MAKE PPC AND ERPPC TAKE UP 4 SLOTS INSTEAD OF 3.

You cant boat a lot of them or you will run out of crit slots. Problem solved.

Opinions?

That wont work, there are plenty of 4 ppc builds that wont hurt at all from ppcs moving to 4 crit slots.

Edit: They would have to each take up 6 crit slots in order to effect any of my builds significantly.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 28 May 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Demosthones, on 28 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

They are in those assaults cause they dish out monster amounts of damage in a match... wait for it... by having huge alphas.

If you make it take up 4 slots instead of 3 it eliminates all those large XL engines and 2+ PPCs in the chest. The HGN-732 would only fit 1 Gauss and 2 PPCs instead of 3.

Or we could put in weight limits like every single serious incarnation of BattleTech play always has to do, so that the high alpha assaults are the minority on the Battlefield, instantly solving all problems with boating.

Assaults should be very powerful and able to carry a large number of big guns but they shouldn't be the most common unit on the field!

[Und3rSc0re]

Victor Morson, on 28 May 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Or we could put in weight limits like every single serious incarnation of BattleTech play always has to do, so that the high alpha assaults are the minority on the Battlefield, instantly solving all problems with boating.

Assaults should be very powerful and able to carry a large number of big guns but they shouldn't be the most common unit on the field!

We already been through this, weight limits wont work since the majority in que most of the time are assaults and heavys, unless you want an assault only game so you can have well balanced games sometimes. There needs to be incentive to run mediums else everyone will run heavys/assaults like they do currently.

[Syllogy]

I see more AC20 Jagers than I see 4PPC boats.

How do you plan to solve that?

[Victor Morson]

Und3rSc0re, on 28 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

We already been through this, weight limits wont work since the majority in que most of the time are assaults and heavys, unless you want an assault only game so you can have well balanced games sometimes. There needs to be incentive to run mediums else everyone will run heavys/assaults like they do currently.

And we need to keep the current system why?

With UI 2.0 around the corner, I think a lobby system would beat the utter hell out of the matchmaker one, and would allow for lobbies of different tonnages to open up so if you really enjoy an all assault game, you can join one; if you prefer a more balanced game, join a different lobby.

Everybody wins.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 May 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[MrPenguin]

MasterErrant, on 28 May 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

as always the fix is to put in the proper heat system

Remember when you guys where crying that the heat system was too unforgiving?
Because I sure do!