22 replies to this topic

[Kyrs]

I've been trying narc with my cent-D with Bap.

The ammo per tons feels right, 12(tons) and the range seem ok , but the effect is still very underwhelming.

For a 4 tons total (that you have to mark) it is over shadowed by seimic module in close range and by Artemis in the longs range. Any type damage seems to remove the narc and the timer it way to short, Exposing your self to quad ppc to land a narc Isn't worth it. I was hoping for a better risk vs reward.

Since ECM can cancel the narc I don't understand why there a both damage or timer cap, either remove the damage cap or the timer. Then it would feel balance vs the other buff.

Would be nice to see atlas teamates shooting them self in some none critical zone to remove a narc, if they don't have a ECM and want to flank after being narc. Edit: Would be nice that the active narc is very susceptible to critical damage, this way we could increase the damage before it come off and create use for flamer and machine gun (LXB would be like shooting a fly with shotgun). My spider with 4 machine gun would have a use in 8vs8

Edited by Kyrs, 29 May 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[C4RNAGE]

why is timer up there not funny

not funny

[Appogee]

I agree.

As missile spammers can't aim for themselves, we have to do everything we can - NARC, TAG, flashing reticles - to reward the poor guys for clicking the trigger from the back of the map.

[Roland]

Kyrs, on 29 May 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

I've been trying narc with my cent-D with Bap.

The ammo per tons feels right, 12(tons) and the range seem ok , but the effect is still very underwhelming.

For a 4 tons total (that you have to mark) it is over shadowed by seimic module in close range and by Artemis in the longs range. Any type damage seems to remove the narc and the timer it way to short, Exposing your self to quad ppc to land a narc Isn't worth it. I was hoping for a better risk vs reward.

I think you are missing the crucial purpose of the narc beacon.

What the narc lets you do, that other equipment doesn't do, is provide a "spotter" on a target.

That is, I can run up to you in a light mech, narc you, and then I can run away.

This means that a light mech can narc a target and then get the hell out of there, and not have to stand around holding the target. He can narc it and run off, guaranteeing that the target will be held all the way until the missiles hit (assuming no one else shoots the target).

Kyrs, on 29 May 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Since ECM can cancel the narc I don't understand why there a both damage or timer cap, either remove the damage cap or the timer. Then it would feel balance vs the other buff.

Supposedly, ECM does actually NOT cancel a narc now. If you narc a target under ECM coverage, it is then exposed and targetable. I have had difficulty confirming this myself though.

Can anyone confirm this? Perhaps a developer?

[Cervantes88]

The only way to make NARC powerful is to make it so that all missiles will home on the closest NARCd target... including SRMs.

Would lead to some pretty fun Stalker 5M builds, with a NARC and 4 potential SSRM6 lol.

Still gotta land the pod on target tho, so it's a fair trade.

[Mizore]

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I think you are missing the crucial purpose of the narc beacon.

What the narc lets you do, that other equipment doesn't do, is provide a "spotter" on a target.

That is, I can run up to you in a light mech, narc you, and then I can run away.

This means that a light mech can narc a target and then get the hell out of there, and not have to stand around holding the target. He can narc it and run off, guaranteeing that the target will be held all the way until the missiles hit (assuming no one else shoots the target).

- Have you ever used NARC in a light mech?
- Do you know how "fast" you still can run when you have 4-5 tons wasted for NARC?
- For a NARC that lasts for a maximum of one salvo? (ok, maybe two because LRMs don't do any damage at the moment)
- Do you know how little damage LRMs are dealing at the moment?
- Do you know how close you have to get to actually get a hit on a moving target?
- Do you know how long you can stay alive when trying to get close to all that sniper assaults that are running arround? (seismic sensors anyone?)
- What do you do when the NARC-beacon is gone? Stay in cover forever?
- Tell me why I haven't seen a NARC even once when the LRMs were really strong before the hotfix (except my own NARC when I tested it)?

Honestly, maybe in one of 200-300 games I can see someone using (or let's better say "testing") NARC.
Doesn't that say all about how good NARC is?

PGI tried several times to buff NARC, but everytime they buffed it, they nerved it at the same time so that NARC still was totally useless.

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Supposedly, ECM does actually NOT cancel a narc now. If you narc a target under ECM coverage, it is then exposed and targetable. I have had difficulty confirming this myself though.

Can anyone confirm this? Perhaps a developer?

They said, that it isn't cancelled by ECM anymore and so it is (I have tested this), but even that doesn't make NARC viable...

To constanly NARC a target you have to stay very close to it, because after every salvo you have to re-NARC again.
There's no time to hide or run away (you're not very fast anyways)...
Especially at the moment when LRMs don't do any significant damage, it's totally useless to risk his life when 3 MedLaser can do much more damage than 2 volleys of LRM15.

NARC and LRMs (spread is very close to where it should be now, but the dmg could nearly be doubled) need a significant buff or no one ever will use NARC!

Edited by Mizore, 29 May 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I would claim that it is not useful for the missile boat user to have it himself. The range is too short. You need someone else to carry it for you, but it doesn't stack with ARTEMIS, which most missile boats will want to use.
And that it is destroyed by pathetic low amounts of damage is no good.

[Corvus Antaka]

if/once LRM damage is brought back in line with other weapons the NARC sohuld be fine. I had great success with it pre-hotfix

[Roland]

Mizore, on 29 May 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

- Have you ever used NARC in a light mech?

Yes, after the most recent patch, I did quite a lot of testing using a narc from my Jenner.

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- Do you know how "fast" you still can run when you have 4-5 tons wasted for NARC?

Max speed. It essentially just replaced the two SRM4's that I was already carrying.

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- For a NARC that lasts for a maximum of one salvo? (ok, maybe two because LRMs don't do any damage at the moment)

Yes, this is certainly a weakness of the NARC. I believe that it should function as it does in battltech, and stay active on a mech until that armor section is totally destroyed. I think this would greatly improve its utility.

As it stands, in testing, we got around this limitation by pairing the narc mech with a mech carrying a RIDICULOUS number of missiles... so while the narc would only last for one shot, that "one shot" consisted of 90 LRM's. The effect was quite humorous, described as "looking like the sun fell onto the target".

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- Do you know how little damage LRMs are dealing at the moment?

This is really not material to the discussion of NARC mechanics.

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- Do you know how close you have to get to actually get a hit on a moving target?

I tended to fire my NARC from point blank range, to guarantee that it would hit the target.

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- Do you know how long you can stay alive when trying to get close to all that sniper assaults that are running arround? (seismic sensors anyone?)

I did not have a large amount of trouble running my jenner and narcing targets. However, it's certainly the case that if you run in a straight line, you will die.

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- What do you do when the NARC-beacon is gone? Stay in cover forever?

You mean when you are out of NARC ammo? You do what you normally do.. you shoot people with your 4 medium lasers.

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- Tell me why I haven't seen a NARC even once when the LRMs were really strong before the hotfix (except my own NARC when I tested it)?

I believe that, as this thread demonstrates, a lot of folks didn't really grasp how NARCs functioned.

Earlier terribad implementations of NARC kind of resulted in folks not bothering with them at all... Most folks didn't realize that the NARC provided a spotter on the target, for instance. (because it didn't do so previously) This leads to the misconception that a narc is simply a very heavy TAG laser.

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To constanly NARC a target you have to stay very close to it, because after every salvo you have to re-NARC again.

There's no time to hide or run away (you're not very fast anyways)...

This is true. I don't like the fact that a narc will be removed by a minimal amount of damage.

However, as I pointed out above, the way I found to get around this limitation is to make sure that the damage dealt involves hitting the target with a MASSIVE missile salvo.

I believe the NARC could do with some improvements, laid out above, but I'm merely pointing out that I did do some testing, and found it to be dramatically more effective than it had been previously throughout beta.

[Deathlike]

NARC has been pretty much useless for the most part. Only when LRMs were briefly in power this time around, it got some play. So, it's mostly a matter of seeing LRMs being useful again before it gets better....

On the other hand, TAG is a lot more productive than NARC by far.

[Pater Mors]

I think NARC needs to do a few things to be a bit more viable:

• The range increase was good but either the rockets should have a very light tracking ability or should track to your reticule (like a laser designated rocket) to remove some of the risk of using it (as it's currently far too high for the reward).
  
• Failing the above, it needs to have its speed increased slightly and perhaps it's ammo per ton increased slightly so that firing at 300m+ is less detrimental.
  
• Instead of just showing a targeted Mech with the NARC symbol, it needs to chime or ping every player with LRM's to alert them that the NARC beacon is now broadcasting. I can't count the number of times I have seen a NARC'ed Mech not taking any incoming fire while Mech's all around it get slammed with LRMs. An alert would get peoples attention and bring down some fire.
  
• Needs to last until the armour section it's attached too is destroyed or 30 seconds is up.
  
• Either completely override ECM (and still provide NARC benefits) or just disable ECM for 30 seconds as a soft counter. Seriously, the amount of effort required to ping someone with a high powered broadcast beacon should be enough to at least nullify their IW Suite.

After the May 21st patch, I saw a resurgence of NARC. I was seeing them every two or three games and it was great. I mounted one on my 2D and my A1 Streakcat just for giggles and had a blast. Since the hotfiix, we're back to zero NARC's because LRM's don't do enough damage to be worth carrying a NARC and it's easier to just mount a TAG and spot for yourself if you're going to boat missiles.

Edited by Pater Mors, 29 May 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Kyrs]

Roland:
"I believe that, as this thread demonstrates, a lot of folks didn't really grasp how NARCs functioned."
"Most folks didn't realize that the NARC provided a spotter on the target, for instance"

Really!! I think you assume way to much... The main purpose of this tread is that there is to many factors that prevent it to be a valuable spotting tool.

Not going comment you about 90 missile(boating) salvo because this related to heat buffer vs dissipation and is not related to this, unless PGI is unable to figure out a proper heat buffer zone.

Not gonna comment your cons-descendant assumption that we go in straight line.

Roland:
"Supposedly, ECM does actually NOT cancel a narc now. If you narc a target under ECM coverage, it is then exposed and targetable. I have had difficulty confirming this myself though."

Is Targetable in LOS yes, but cancel ALL NARC bonus, no SPOTTING, no lock bonus. Keeping LOS for your teamate is a death wish. In other word it almost useless.

Roland:
"That is, I can run up to you in a light mech, narc you, and then I can run away.

This means that a light mech can narc a target and then get the hell out of there, and not have to stand around holding the target. He can narc it and run off, guaranteeing that the target will be held all the way until the missiles hit (assuming no one else shoots the target)."

You need to hide and stay in range of 180 to count ECM with your BAP, see above; no narc bonus on icon target on if ECM active. Just doesn't work on the battle field. Can't blame the missile support for not wanting to expose them self to quad ppcs to maintain LOS.

[Tombstoner]

narc vs tag... i go tag... Narc is way to short. granted it does have to be short other wise multiple salvos of lrm will hit. this i think it a bit OP. but the shot time also makes it kind useless. for its mass and chance for people have tunnel vision and not target things i have narc-ed of tagged is frustrating.

i have found the best way to kill a light mech is with LRMS or ssrm if available but people dont take advantage of my targeting most of the time.

it does get used if no other target is available. its the blob mentality... the reason why people chase lights...ooo red dot ... kill.

i think that once narked its permanent till the section is destroyed. but all it does is reduces lock on time by 75%. for the weight and ammo needed along with range it should be way better then tag but its not.

[Roland]

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Is Targetable in LOS yes, but cancel ALL NARC bonus, no SPOTTING, no lock bonus. Keeping LOS for your teamate is a death wish. In other word it almost useless.

But that's the thing, you again seem to be missing that NARC provides spotting for you.

When you narc a target, you don't need to keep LOS on it. You can just run away, and it will keep that mech targetable as though someone had LOS to it.

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You need to hide and stay in range of 180 to count ECM with your BAP, see above; no narc bonus on icon target on if ECM active.

No, the NARC beacon counters ECM itself.

You can narc a target, and then run away, and it'll stay targetable by your team no matter what, as long as the beacon is attached.

This is what the dev Omid said, although I have not verified it myself currently. The guy above in this thread apparently did though.

[Kyrs]

Roland:
"But that's the thing, you again seem to be missing that NARC provides spotting for you.

When you narc a target, you don't need to keep LOS on it. You can just run away, and it will keep that mech targetable as though someone had LOS to it.

No, the NARC beacon counters ECM itself.

You can narc a target, and then run away, and it'll stay targetable by your team no matter what, as long as the beacon is attached.

This is what the dev Omid said, although I have not verified it myself currently. The guy above in this thread apparently did though."

Where I write that don't run away?!!! what wrong with you dude?
ECM cancel = Targetable LOS (Line Of Sight)
NO narc bonus just "ECM cancel = Targetable LOS (Line Of Sight)"
to achieve narc bonus on ECM target, one must cancel ECM with BAP so that the NARC bonus(spotting) come through.
that why your stuck in 180m to target with your BAP, hopefully behind a LARGE ROCK.

Thanks for stating the obvious "Narc Beacon" act like a "Beacon; does the spotting for u). Pretty shure "Beacon" concept is extremely well establish in people mind.

The issued it is the time delay or damage cap, hell!! maybe make machine gun and flamer usefull has micro manage narc counter.

Edited by Kyrs, 29 May 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[Roland]

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Where I write that don't run away?!!! what wrong with you dude?
ECM cancel = Targetable LOS (Line Of Sight)
NO narc bonus just "ECM cancel = Targetable LOS (Line Of Sight)"
to achieve narc bonus on ECM target, one must cancel ECM with BAP so that the NARC bonus(spotting) come through.

Honestly man, I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say.

I'm pretty sure though, that you are mistaken in what you are trying to convey.

According to the developer Omid, and apparently confirmed by the other guy in this thread, if you shoot a narc beacon onto a mech carrying ECM, then that person is exposed. And because the NARC beacon provides a spotter for you, you do not need to hold LOS on the target.

BAP is immaterial at this point. You do not need to be close to that mech to counter his ECM, because the fact that he has a Narc beacon on him counters the ecm cloak.

Likewise, no one on your team needs to have LOS to the mech, because the NARC itself is providing the spotter. Even if NO ONE on your team can see that mech, anyone can target him and fire missiles at him.

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Thanks for stating the obvious "Narc Beacon" act like a "Beacon; does the spotting for u). Pretty shure "Beacon" concept is extremely well establish in people mind.

Again, I think something is being lost in translation, but for the record, previously the Narc beacon didn't actually function like this. It's only recently that it provides a spotter on the narced target.

[Mizore]

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

As it stands, in testing, we got around this limitation by pairing the narc mech with a mech carrying a RIDICULOUS number of missiles... so while the narc would only last for one shot, that "one shot" consisted of 90 LRM's. The effect was quite humorous, described as "looking like the sun fell onto the target".

Ok, so the only way to make NARC usefull is to have some mates that massively boat LRMs on assaults?
Isn't that a clear sign that something is totally broken?
So what about PUG games when you are alone?

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

This is really not material to the discussion of NARC mechanics.

Yes, it is.
Why would you want to use NARC when the weapon system that is supported trough NARC only does very little damage?
It'd be a big effort for nothing, a bad trade-off.
-> broken

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I tended to fire my NARC from point blank range, to guarantee that it would hit the target.

So why did they buff the ROF when you still have to get very close to at least hit something?
-> broken

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

You mean when you are out of NARC ammo? You do what you normally do.. you shoot people with your 4 medium lasers.

But you said this:

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

That is, I can run up to you in a light mech, narc you, and then I can run away.


This means that a light mech can narc a target and then get the hell out of there...

To me this means a one-time NARC... but to constantly support your team, you still have to stay around the target for re-narcing every few seconds.
That's not the purpose of NARC!
-> broken

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I believe that, as this thread demonstrates, a lot of folks didn't really grasp how NARCs functioned.

Earlier terribad implementations of NARC kind of resulted in folks not bothering with them at all... Most folks didn't realize that the NARC provided a spotter on the target, for instance. (because it didn't do so previously) This leads to the misconception that a narc is simply a very heavy TAG laser.

But this "spotter" is just a nice side effect and not the intentional purpose of NARC.

Roland, on 29 May 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

However, as I pointed out above, the way I found to get around this limitation is to make sure that the damage dealt involves hitting the target with a MASSIVE missile salvo.

I believe the NARC could do with some improvements, laid out above, but I'm merely pointing out that I did do some testing, and found it to be dramatically more effective than it had been previously throughout beta.

Again: Abusing the hardpoint system and boating LRMs on assaults to make NARC somewhat viable is no sign that everything is OK with NARC.
The facts are clear: It's by far the least used weapon system and that shows that something is totally broken!

[Deathlike]

Mizore, on 29 May 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

But this "spotter" is just a nice side effect and not the intentional purpose of NARC.

Relative to this game and developers comments, it's actually intentional. Whether that was how it operated in a different game and/or BT/TT specs... it doesn't pretend to be at all.

[Roland]

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Ok, so the only way to make NARC usefull is to have some mates that massively boat LRMs on assaults?
Isn't that a clear sign that something is totally broken?
So what about PUG games when you are alone?

I would not tend to use NARC in that situation. But at the same time, certain types of equipment are likely going to be less useful in non team play.

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So why did they buff the ROF when you still have to get very close to at least hit something?
-> broken

Agreed, I don't see what the point of increasing the range is. I'd never fire a narc from range, given that you're almost guaranteed to miss. They'd need to make it actually lock onto a target to be useful at range.

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To me this means a one-time NARC... but to constantly support your team, you still have to stay around the target for re-narcing every few seconds.

Well, in practice when I was testing it, I'd narc targets periodically, and then play "normally" the rest of the time.

So, it wasn't that my only purpose was to narc mechs.. but narc allowed me to narc a target who was behind cover, even if he had a ton of his team with him, and then bug out.. and then that guy would eat a billion LRM's.

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Again: Abusing the hardpoint system and boating LRMs on assaults to make NARC somewhat viable is no sign that everything is OK with NARC.
The facts are clear: It's by far the least used weapon system and that shows that something is totally broken!

I would agree that the NARC should be improved, ideally such that it stays on a mech until the armor section it is attached to is destroyed. That change alone would make it quite useful, and eliminate the need to make sure that first hit consists of infinite missiles.

However, it's definitely not the worst weapon. Even in its current weak state, it's better than machine guns or flamers.

[FerrolupisXIII]

The only time i see NARC on the field is when its on a trial mech. or someone is dicking around. its a compleet waste of 3 tons (tag in its place for 1 ton)

besides the weird auto falling off and being removed by damage....

it DOES NOT stack with Artemis. and every LRM pilot i know uses Artemis FCS. TAG stacks with it, but not NARC, even when the Artemis is non functional due to lack of LOS.

thats the real turn off for me. i can have something that does a similar job AND stacks with my built in missile upgrades? or, i can pay three tons more and get a "better" buff, but it is not compatible? no thanks. anyone using NARC right now is wasting their time, for most LRM mechs it wont even do anything.