51 replies to this topic

[Tsula]

Glad you all read my post before jumping in

[CompleteTanker]

StriplingWarrior, on 07 June 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

1. Anything seems to fit anywhere-go look at the mechlab dev breakdown. Takes a Hunchback's AC and puts some energy weapons in there.

No.

In the Mechlab Developer Breakdown , Paul takes out the AC20 and replaces it with an A/C5 and a machine gun and some ammo.

He did not put any energy weapon in it's place, that is to say the Right Torso.

He did add 2 Small Lasers.....in the arms.

[Shepherd]

Here's my take:

To put different types of weapons, you need a different variant for non-omni (not making a clan/IS difference as Clan has non-omnis too). So while there could be several different Hunchback variants, there will be only one "Summoner."

When changing weapons for IS mechs, there is a cost. So far we know you must pay for the weapons, but is there a cost for modification? If there is a cost for modifying your mech, apart from the cost of new parts, then perhaps a benefit of Omni technology is that once you have the parts, swapping them around is free? In the lore it's a huge headache to swap weapons in non-omnis because all of the necessary mountings and wiring is fixed and specific to the weapons intended. Omni technology means all weapons are accounted for in the Omni pod, and all weapons are made to be plugged into an omni pod. In a given campaign, Omni pilots may drop initially in an A configuration, for the next battle they may switch to Prime, and for a third battle they may swap over to a D configuration. Non-omni pilots are stuck with what they brought for the duration, as you really don't do field refits mid-campaign - refits are for your home base mechlab.

I view Omnimechs as being far more expensive initially, but cheaper to tinker with. I'm excited to see how PGI implements this aspect of the game.

[UncleKulikov]

Ways to make Omni Mechs different:

1. If refitting a mech takes time, Omni Mechs would take less or no time
2. Omni Mechs could come with universal hardpoints, so that you only need 1 chassis to do any loadout compared to the 4 or 5 variant chassis for standard mechs

There are other ways, but they go against canon.

[Lipot]

Every keeps forgetting about field mods when they keep bringing up canon and 'mech layouts. Omni 'mechs strength comes from being extremely flexible. In terms of game play for something like MWO is that if you have a small fall back point that stores your gear then you can switch out. Mech variants were factory products to meet various House requests. "Field" mods are changes that pilots, usually mercs', do to help give them some flexibility. The problem with field mods is that they take a lot more time to complete and if they are too extreme can cause issues. Maybe a way to encourage Omni 'mechs when they come out is if you are modding a 'mech and it is outside the normal mods then the 'mech is "locked" from play for a short period of time. Hard points can be moved but it is not easy and most mechanics would charge 4 times the normal for being asked to do such work.

[Gremlich Johns]

A more informed OP title would have been "Will a Mechlab make Omnimechs irrelevant?"

[Daneiel]

The answer is yes in that way of the mechlab . The solution time and money - if you change something in your mech it will cost you much and will lock you mech for some time (not playable for some time ) - example if you decide to replace AC/20 with Gauss Rifle it will cost you lets say 500000 c-bills( that dont include the cost of the weapon only the modification price) and will lock your mech for 4 days , if you decide to upgrade your medium lasers to ER medium lasers ir pulse medium lasers it will cost you 20k c-bills and will lock your mech for 2 hours .That will give omnimechs the proper idea for easy modification and the battlemech for hard and expensive modification .I know that many people will not like it but that is the only posible solution in that way of mechlab - so you will be much more forced to not tweek youyr mech before every battle !!!!

Edited by daneiel varna, 07 June 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Frostiken]

CompleteTanker, on 07 June 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

No.

In the Mechlab Developer Breakdown , Paul takes out the AC20 and replaces it with an A/C5 and a machine gun and some ammo.

He did not put any energy weapon in it's place, that is to say the Right Torso.

He did add 2 Small Lasers.....in the arms.

To reinforce this point, pay attention to the little thingy under the crit slots: "Hardpoint Restrictions". That particular Hunchy's right torso only fits up to three ballistic weapons. With the AC/20 it says 2/3.

The arms can carry up to three energy weapons, center torso up to 3 (though it can't fit three, obviously). The left torso can fit no weapons.

I assume the Swayback is energy restricted. Which means to make a Swayback you have to buy a new mech. I guess that'll be the difference between these and Omnis?

I would make it so:

Omni chassis' cost a fortune.
Omnis are basically unrestricted in where weapons go, but it costs much more to make these changes, as the tech is so cutting-edge and requires special omni-pods and adapters.
Omnis have some features hard-locked. Engine, armor values.


Battlemechs can adjust engine, armor, but are more hardpoint-limited. These adjustments should be restricted to a realistic degree - you don't typically see engine changes in canon variants of being much more than a 50 rating change or thereabouts. Armor is usually just a few extra tons on or off.

Battlemechs modified in the mechlab have some sort of restriction put on their use to reflect the time to refit the whole chassis, so you can't constantly be changing stuff in and out. Battlemechs typically have varied loadouts because of this limitation, so maybe a limit on the number of times a Battlemech can go to the mechlab in a month, or something along those lines, so players cannot constantly adjust the chassis.

Edited by Frostiken, 07 June 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[GrimJim]

I wonder if PGI will "sell" OmniPods like they will modules when OmniMechs make the scene.

[GrimJim]

ragnarawk, on 07 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

real life situations are where the omni mech would shine. one mission on the front you could have a missle suport boat then once the enemy had retreated into a wood or city switch to a close combat pod system and move in and fluch em out. one mech handleing multible jobs was the concept. in a computer game however ya have no real rush between missions so a inner sphere mech can take all the time in the world to refit and go to the next fight. for this game i would have to agree that for instace the catapult and katapult would be 2 seprate mechs.

It would be interesting if you could switch "pods" during play, much in the same way you used repair bays in MW4. Then the Variant v. Omni argument is a mute one since the advantage of in game flexibility is massive (and canonwise quite accurate... I can remember at least one example of the Steel Vipers using that tactic against the AFFC on Blackjack or some such world in '51...)

Edited by GrimJim, 07 June 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Dante Giuseppe Lassenerra]

I've played the free version of MW4: Mercenaries released by mektek a lot this year and I think it does a good job of at least the visual representation of conveying space on limbs/hardpoints and what weapons will fit where when you're in the mechlab, especially when outfitting OmniMechs (my favourite being Nova Cat). I haven't gotten the chance yet to play the original MW4: Vengeance (despite every article I find saying it's free to download as well....) but I've also experienced MW3 and MW2.

In those games I find that while the Mechlab was much more technical/immersive, you also had more room for just about everything. Example: I can cram LRM20s, a CGAUSS and an CERPPC in a Sunder and still have room for jump jets, LAMs, 4 tons of ammo, and a buttload of armour in MW3. Mektek's release of MW4 laughs at my wish to do this. Now, I know that game also brings in a lot of non-canon elements, but I'm just saying it seems to be more realistic as when you're changing the loadout on an OmniMech, you have several omni spots and then a couple of limited (energy-only, etc.) spots. I like that implementation.

I've also yet to play Living Legends as I don't have Crysis Wars, so if anyone can provide insight on that I'm curious.
I've played the free version of MW4: Mercenaries released by mektek a lot this year and I think it does a good job of at least the visual representation of conveying space on limbs/hardpoints and what weapons will fit where when you're in the mechlab, especially when outfitting OmniMechs (my favourite being Nova Cat). I haven't gotten the chance yet to play the original MW4: Vengeance (despite every article I find saying it's free to download as well....) but I've also experienced MW3 and MW2.

In those games I find that while the Mechlab was much more technical/immersive, you also had more room for just about everything. Example: I can cram LRM20s, a CGAUSS and an CERPPC in a Sunder and still have room for jump jets, LAMs, 4 tons of ammo, and a buttload of armour in MW3. Mektek's release of MW4 laughs at my wish to do this. Now, I know that game also brings in a lot of non-canon elements, but I'm just saying it seems to be more realistic as when you're changing the loadout on an OmniMech, you have several omni spots and then a couple of limited (energy-only, etc.) spots. I like that implementation.

I've also yet to play Living Legends as I don't have Crysis Wars, so if anyone can provide insight on that I'm curious.

But yes, in terms of gameplay I agree that if you're dumping the C-Bills on an OmniMech, you get to change your configuration as you see fit before a particular engagement, or change 'Mechs altogether. If you decided to get a standard BattleMech, all you can do is change your 'Mech or stick with what you've got.

I think it should be thought of in terms of you being in your DropShip, 12-48 hours away from the very next engagement. If you've got an OmniMech, you can tell your techs to swap out the LRMs on your Timber Wolf for Streak SRMs since you're dropping into a city, and repair whatever damage was taken in the last battle as well. If you've got a BattleMech, you've gotta yell at your techs to hurry up and repair your damn Atlas or else you're going into battle already bruised, and you're sure as hell not taking that Uller in the next bay over.

[Joseph Mallan]

GrimJim, on 07 June 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Its a serious question, since it seems at this point you can craft almost any configuration your little heart desires as long as you have the C-Bills.

Hardpoint type doesn't seem to be a problem if you unlock other variants (i.e.: HBK-4P Hunchback will give you energy ports were your ballistics once were, same for the CPT-K2 Catapult where the missile points were)
Indeed, if you unlock all the variants on a model of 'Mech it seems you could have any weapon type, in any order you want so long as you have the cash.

So I have to ask. What will be the incentive behind trying to buy/capture OmniMechs next year if you have by that point built a stable of Inner Sphere 'Mechs that, once outfitted with Clan Tech, is JUST as powerful and interchangeable?

Hard points stop you from making the AC20 Hunch into the laser boat Hunch. Technically and I keep pointing this out, The real Canon difference between Omnis and BattleMechs was that an Omni pod could be swapped out in a matter of hours. A battlemech refit took days or weeks. That is all handwavium in both TT and Video games.

Remember most combat was performed by group A hopping on a Interstellar ship, travelling Light years to their target then travelling from a fixed point in space to the target planet. This takes weeks or even Months to travel. Dropships have MechBays and are fully capable of supporting these modifications given enough time. That is the only thing that separates a Omni from a BattleMech.

Hard points are an artificial limitaion made by the Devs to restrict Me from building a Mech with 38 Medium lasers and a 400 rate engine(for instance).