21 replies to this topic

[MisterFiveSeven]

I have recently noticed that whenever I drop in an assault mech, my matches take forever to connect and I end up in games where 9/10 of the time there is nothing lighter than a jager. Also, the player quality seems significantly higher in those matches (but they still think they can brawl with me in my misery ).

However, if I drop in anything other than an assault mech, I see varied weight classes. I see lots of O.D. green paintjobs, non-minmaxed mechs, and *gasp* a bunch of medium mechs!

Now please understand I am not bad at this game. My recent KDR (>2.0) has been better for heavies and mediums than assaults, but I haven't really kept track of my wins/losses. However, I have a suspicion:

1. Weight classes are not balanced (duh) by equality of outcome.
2. Higher weight class almost always results in a more favorable W/L ratio.
3. This means that players have the highest ELO in the assault weight class almost as a rule.

So as a proportion of the overall team ELO, each player becomes a much bigger chunk, and the only way to match it is with an equally big chunk on the other team. What this ends up causing is a pyramid effect, where high ELO assault players are going to see nothing but incredibly high weight matches. Now it should subside over time as the higher ELO players get separated by grinding each other to pieces, but right now I just stopped playing assaults for most matches. It's not fun to drop against ~700 tons of mech, even with equal weight on my team. A match with 16 hunchbacks is way more fun than a match with 16 highlander/atlas/stalker.

Now obviously there will be exceptions; this had more to do with general trends and averages than personal experience (disclaimer necessary because there's that one spider pilot who's going to comment on this thread just to tell me I'm wrong and light mechs are his/her best lol).

Has anyone else noticed this? Am I entirely misunderstanding the way ELO works? Is this actually part of a more dynamic situation that I'm just now catching on to?

Discuss!

EDIT:: I can't spell.

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 30 May 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Unrelenting Farce]

Before this patch, which really, really hurt brawling, I was only dropping in heavy/assault matches when I took out my HBK or my Atlas. Now that I've lost a gazillion games in a row due to weird things like hit detection, teaching a few brand new players how to play (AHHHHHHH LOSSES), ridiculous number of disconnects, and, overall, far fewer people brawling, I'm getting matched with people who don't know what's going on. I have no idea what to expect any more because nobody else I'm playing with now knows what's going on.

Before this patch, I noticed that my team would have a few really great players and some players who don't know what Arm Lock is, etc. I suspected that had to do with having high ELO assaults (I noticed that most often in my DDC).

If I had to guess, I'd say you're on to something.

[Dawnstealer]

I've noticed something a little different: I flip-flop between my Stalkers (mostly brawlers, with one exception) and my Cicadas, which I'm currently trying to level up.

When I drop as the Cicada, the teams seem MILDLY more balanced, but I've dropped as a Stalker and faced off against 3-Atlas, 2-Highlander + a herd of heavies, and I'll be the only assault on my team pretty regularly. I'm not sure if this is just because they're pre-built, random chance, or something else, but I've noticed I get the short end of the weight stick REAL often.

And my DTK ratio isn't great (stalker brawlers being popular targets because the giant "SHOOT MY SIDE TORSO" signs they carry around), so I don't think it's that.

I don't mind if the game balances out the weight, because if I drop with my CDA, the last thing I want to face on the other side is eight Assault mechs, but that seems to be happening with some frequency.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 30 May 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Pretty much exactly what I was seeing while I tried to level my highlanders (and then gave up).

[DaZur]

As I understand it we have a separate Elo score for each weight class...

This reasonably explains why you are seeing disparity between your Assault class and the other weight class drops.

I too witnessed this until such time I played all my weight classes roughly the same number of drops and each weight class seeing roughly the same success in wins/loss.

Edited by DaZur, 30 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Mawai]

Ok ... I'll add 2 cents to the discussion

1) You have a different ELO rating for each mech class ... so the more you play each class the more likely your ELO is to be accurate ... UNTIL you switch mechs. I've found driving a different mech in a specific class will change my W/L and ELO ... usually since I typically lose quite a few matches until figuring out a good fit for my preferred playstyle. For example, I just bought a Highlander and haven't been doing that well with it as I learn about its idiosyncracies and how to use it with the team. It also takes a while to build up mech xp and unlock efficiencies which DO increase overall effectiveness.

2) I'll be the spider pilot ... (Jenner actually) ... my W/L in my Jenner is about 2.1 over 77 matches since statistics were collected. My best assault is the Stalker-5M with a 1.65 W/L over 82 matches. So in my experience there doesn't appear to be a bias to assault mechs.

3) In the past week I've been finishing the experience of my 5M then playing in the Victory challenge. During that time I haven't noticed any trend in mech composition in matches. I have dropped in everything from 7 assaults to matches with 1 assault ... and everything in between. When I play an assault there is of course a greater chance of more assaults in the match because I am playing one ... but among the remaining 7 I haven't seen much of a trend. However, matches with more assaults are more likely if folks are playing assaults more often ... the matchmaker can only draw from the available pool.

[Hobietime]

I think I see this too. I almost never see mediums unless the Kaos Legion decides to to drop in the lower weight classes. Then we get stomped and mavRCK does nearly as much damage as I did in my stalker with an ERPPC spider.

[Sagamore]

Now that you mention it... most of my matches recently have had at least 5 assaults on each team when I pilot assault. Some games have 6 or 7 assaults. My favourite game featured three founders atlases in one lance.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Perhaps I should clarify:

I know ELO segregates by weight class. What I'm describing is an unintended consequence of ELO by weight class and imbalance in the effectiveness of each weight class with respect to tonnage (greater is better).

And also, I understand that ELO is W/L, not KDR, and a KDR of >2.0 does not automatically mean I'm doing well even in Assault.

Example: If a DDC of average ELO get >3.0 kills a game, I'm actually hurting my team with a KDR less than that, and my ELO will eventually be less than average. The fatties gotta carry their weight

Even so, it's reasonable to assume there's a loose correlation between KDR and ELO (that gets tighter as tonnage increases).

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 30 May 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[aniviron]

Today you learned: Elo is not an acronym. It does not stand for anything. It is the last name of Arpad Elo, who came up with the Elo rating system; unless you just like shouting Mr. Elo's name, it behooves you to only put the E in the upper case.

p.s. I too find that when I drop in lighter mechs I see more light mechs, but no idea if that's accurate. Observer bias and all.

[Kitane]

A good observation and a good reason why not to drive assault or a minmaxed build, unless you have a huge craving for a lot of cheese on both sides. Mid-range ELO is quite pleasant to play, with nice variety of mechs and usually decent battles.

ELO gives minmaxers what they deserve, a fight against other minmaxers. If they like it, good for them. If they don't... tough luck?

[One Medic Army]

Kitane, on 30 May 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

ELO gives minmaxers what they deserve, a fight against other minmaxers. If they like it, good for them. If they don't... tough luck?

The downside is anyone who's actually a good pilot in an assault gets bumped up there too.
Of my 3 highlanders, the only one with PPCs at all mounts 2 and an AC/20. All my highlanders have maxmimum jets because I like jet brawling.
I still end up in matches with nothing but poptarts.

[shabowie]

To all the people saying ELO is not an acronym, that is correct, however it is becoming common in writing circles to capitalize the entire word as a way to differentiate between an ELO based system and Mr. Elo who pioneered the idea behind these systems.

[Kitane]

One Medic Army, on 30 May 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

The downside is anyone who's actually a good pilot in an assault gets bumped up there too.
Of my 3 highlanders, the only one with PPCs at all mounts 2 and an AC/20. All my highlanders have maxmimum jets because I like jet brawling.
I still end up in matches with nothing but poptarts.

That is not a downside. An assault mech is going to have a combat advantage over smaller mech if both have similar skill level. Weight classes are not intended to be balanced. So why would a medium mech have to suffer constantly fighting against similar skill assault pilots when it is not even remotely a fair fight?

[Onmyoudo]

Kitane, on 31 May 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

That is not a downside. An assault mech is going to have a combat advantage over smaller mech if both have similar skill level. Weight classes are not intended to be balanced. So why would a medium mech have to suffer constantly fighting against similar skill assault pilots when it is not even remotely a fair fight?

You seem to have totally missed the point of the Elo system. Weight classes are intended to be balanced in MWO, as all chassis are supposed to be viable. And a medium mech would have to constantly fight similar skill pilots, assault or not, as that is what the Elo is supposed to match on. Skill.

[Redshift2k5]

Note that you (and every other player) has four different elo scores.

You accrue Elo rating on a per-weight-class basis, so you can be in the deep end in Assault mechs but still in a lower part of the scale in all other chassis. This can be helpful if you make a career playing Assaults and then buy a Light, you are not suddenly in a high elo bracket with a new mech with no skills or experience.

If you keep playing in other weight classes your Elo in those weight classes will rise to meet your skill level in those weight class mechs.

The only way to lower your Elo as an Assault pilot is to lose (and you must lose a match where the Elo rating was in your favour to win) and it will go back up again as soon as you stop losing.

[Kitane]

Onmyoudo, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

You seem to have totally missed the point of the Elo system. Weight classes are intended to be balanced in MWO, as all chassis are supposed to be viable. And a medium mech would have to constantly fight similar skill pilots, assault or not, as that is what the Elo is supposed to match on. Skill.

ELO was developed for chess, a game with (probably) a perfect balance and so it is based only on match results. If we all were in one type of a mech with one type of a build with a perfect connection, ELO would provide a correct skill based match making.

But some builds are better than others, some mechs are better than others. Weight classes are never going to be balanced, because in BT/MW universe a heavier mech has the advantage by design. No space magic will make Hunchback an equal opponent to Victor, Highlander or Atlas.

Edited by Kitane, 31 May 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

OP I do see something similar,

When I drop in mediums or heavies there tends to only be one or two assaults on each team, but when I drop in one of my highlanders it's not unusual to have 5+ on each team which seems to back up what you are observing.

The Elo system is producing a sub set of players with a (presumably) high Elo who are lumped together at high weight classes.

Not sure I agree with your reasoning as to why this would happen but I am seeing some of the signs that you are.

[Yanlowen Cage]

assualts will have higher elo, as they drop into matches with lower weight classes then rip them up. then they move onto a higher bracket. Sweet. Kinda tired of seeing the massed assualt drops anyway.

[Syllogy]

It's been around since the beginning of the matchmaker. If you drop in heavier mechs, you will typically face off against heavier enemy forces, and dropping in lighter mechs will face off against lighter enemy forces.

While this isn't always 100% the case, it's fairly common. When I am in my Awesome or Stalker, I would say that 8 out of 10 matches results in both teams having greater than 500 tons total. The remaining 2 are somewhere between 350-500. That is flip-flopped when I am running my Raven or Jenner.

In my Heavies and Mediums though, most matches are pretty much balanced. Somewhere between 350-550 tons for pretty much every drop.