79 replies to this topic

[H Seldon]

I say put a large min distance on er/ppc (0 damage below min range) and then an option to disable it. But you risk the weapon blowing up when firing, like how gauss rifle blows up when destroyed. I think it would force more balanced builds and maybe a little more thinking.

[shabowie]

King of the Battlefield.

[Sephlock]

The purpose is to kill people dead.

[OneEyed Jack]

FFS, there are no "sniper" weapons because there are no effing snipers. This isn't effing CoD.

The intended purpose of every gun is to shoot things. They have the balancing factors of heat, weight, crits, ammo, range, ROF, and pinpoint vs. spread. They trade off those factors to create different ways of ultimately accomplishing the exact same thing. But there are no classes.

There are no "sniper mechs". There's just mechs that carry a variety of guns. So quit trying to effing pigeon-hole the weapons into what you think they should be based on CoD, CS, Tribes or whatever FPS you played before. This isn't that game.

[subgenius]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

That's the problem..... you can make a 4 medium laser build on an Atlas with an AC/20 and you're outgunned by 2 ERPPC+Gauss (due to pinpoint damage and fire rate). That's messed up..

Hold on... let me get this straight. You're upset that 18 tons of weapon loadout isn't better than 29 tons of weapon loadout (plus the extra heat sinks you will need for the PPCs)?!

Someone needs to cut back on the hyperbole. I get it that being able to land all that damage in one place instantaneously creates a balancing challenge, but things are FAR from as broken as your rant makes them out to be.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Ngamok, on 30 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

in TT and Lore, energy weapons are favored in long term fighting so mechs wouldn't be ammo dependent. It's a long range fire support weapon much like a Gauss is.

Yes and the gauss is ammo dependent. Mechs like the Archer and Jagermech were designed to do damage at long range with LRM's and AC's because there were long range alternatives to PPC's and Lg. lasers. Yah energy weapons allows you to be ammo free, but large numbers of mechs used ammo weapons for long range. Just ask the Valkyrie or Whitworth. Most mechs referred to as 'fire support' mechs in the TRO's were usually LRM carriers.

[Glythe]

subgenius, on 30 May 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

things are FAR from as broken as your rant makes them out to be.

Considering that the JJ aspect of sniping is getting nerfed and the fire rate has already been changed once I think the devs disagree. That change won't be enough and the meta will continue until it gets nerfed into oblivion.

You're going to sound foolish if you try to say that PPCs are not the dominant force in the game right now. They are that much better than the rest of the weapons and it really shows.

Edited by Glythe, 30 May 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[Liberator]

I do not feel the ppc is to blame, it is mostly the small matter that they are better than the ballistic equilants, a ppc is lighter and has unlimited ammo, this ammo does not bring any weight as all mechs need heatsinks anyway.

If ballistic weapons only needed a single ton of ammo to deal a potential 500 damage then that would be a start, ballistic weapons really need some love. Not going to start on missiles.

Yeah, that is my point really, there are so many disadvantages with using missiles and guns that only energy weapons really shine.
Within the energy arsenal I feel the current balance between the ppc and large lasers are okay, but pulse lasers need some love.

[Curccu]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

If you decide that the PPC is a sniper weapon I humbly ask that you make it terrible for "short range" fighting (anything less than 450m). The best way to do this is to make the weapon travel slowly at first and increase as it moves away from the shooter. What speed should the PPC travel at 450 meters? I think the answer is something like 100m/s or less. With a little bit of work you can still make the ERPPC hit a target at 1500m at the same speed as though it were traveling 2000m/s the entire time. Likewise you can scale back the regular PPC for its intended range.

Wait what ? Do I understand right that you want ppcs travel time to 450 meters be 4,5 seconds or more?

[Glythe]

Do you remember the old Gauss rifle? It was nearly 100% the go to weapon of choice for ballistic slots on heavy/assault mechs. It got nerfed because it was so much better than everything else.

The PPC is in the same state as the old Gauss rifle. Either everything else is going to need massive buffs or the PPC needs massive nerfs. Which one is easier to do for a game in beta state?

Curccu, on 31 May 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Wait what ? Do I understand right that you want ppcs travel time to 450 meters be 4,5 seconds or more?

Yep.... when used at 'close range'. No one used the old PPC because it was too hot. Everyone spams the new version because it runs way too cool, is super easy to aim due to the fast projectile velocity, and the damage is all in one spot.

The current drawback to the weapon doesn't work. It needs major nerfs so that it is not the only viable weapon.

I was suggesting we have the PPC accelerate once it reaches sniper range instead of always traveling at maximum weapon velocity. If math if more of your thing imagine if the PPC had logarithmic acceleration instead of a fixed linear speed. It would be slow, until you get to long range and then go really really fast.

You could dodge it no problem at close range and it would be very tricky at long range.

Note the overall time to reach a target at max range would be the same..... meaning easier to hit long range targets and harder to hit close range.


If you prefer we could have the PPC fire a long line of particles that last maybe 1 second in duration. That way if you are moving the majority of the particle stream misses. This would automatically waste probably 90% of the damage from poptart tactics. In addition it would make your firing position extremely obvious, reduce damage by a boatload and make it far worse than a laser. I think my other suggestion is far more generous.

Edited by Glythe, 02 June 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Augustus Martelus II]

PPC and er PPCs in battletech are a dominant weapon.

[subgenius]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Considering that the JJ aspect of sniping is getting nerfed and the fire rate has already been changed once I think the devs disagree. That change won't be enough and the meta will continue until it gets nerfed into oblivion.

You're going to sound foolish if you try to say that PPCs are not the dominant force in the game right now. They are that much better than the rest of the weapons and it really shows.

You ignored the massive logical fallacy I called out in your post, and proceeded to put words in my mouth. I never said they aren't better than other weapons. Of course more balancing is needed. However, things aren't completely nuts, and deep breaths are in order.

What I did say, is that your arguments are of the knee-jerk variety and that your posts contain completely false information, i.e. 18 tons of weapons should perform on par with 29 tons of weapons. Hard to take you seriously when your complaints are so overblown.

[Rahnu]

Liberator, on 31 May 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

Within the energy arsenal I feel the current balance between the ppc and large lasers are okay, but pulse lasers need some love.

I completely disagree. Large lasers don't even have a heat advantage over PPCs, which is absurd considering how massive a disadvantage the 1-second duration is versus the instantaneous damage put out by PPCs. The duration disadvantage and lower range means that large lasers should always be able to out-brawl an equivalent PPC-wielding mech, but in actual reality this is far from what actually happens in combat due to PPCs being able to far more easily place shots on the correct subsystems.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I wonder if the best way to handle the challenge of balancing PPC's and ERPPCs at this point would be to have them with a separate Hardpoint than the different Lasers.

On one hand, this would give the Awesomes, that are supposed to carry PPCs and ERPPCs, a more prominent role on the battlefield, and should prevent more than three PPCs or ERPPCs to be mounted on any one mech.

And on the other hand having the Hardpoint separated could remove the issues with other mech builds that make use of the different combinations of massed PPCs, ERPPCs, Alpha to shutdown and/or jumpets.

I'd even welcome restrictions on other weapons where appropriate per chassis, so less mechs can be considered useless and make it easier to balance different weapons. (LRMs are another weapon system that could benefit if there is a control on the insanely large volleys possible on certain mechs, and also LRM 5s should be made viable beyond simply being an annoying distraction for example).

At this point, I'm all for mech specializations, and I figure that something like this should help diversify the mechs used for more competitive matches. And if a player wants to try different loadouts then sometimes we'd need to have different chassis to try all of them out, it maybe an inconvenience for some, but I'd rather have this game be more fun for more players, especially new players that can get frustrated by this game both in figuring out how to make an effective loadout and then be able to use it in combat.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

PPCs are a hard hitting Energy Weapon that can fill Fire Support, Mid range brawling an sniping. It does not have to fill just one role.

By that description alone why would anyone take anything else?

Augustus Martelus II, on 02 June 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

PPC and er PPCs in battletech are a dominant weapon.

which is why normally you only see 1 or 2 mechs drop with them due to heat/weight..... but in MWO's candyland freeforall everyone can use PPCs and never worry about heat or splash damage.

Edited by lockwoodx, 02 June 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[Escef]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I think PGI needs to sit down and think what they had in mind for this weapon.

In the Past the PPC was a sniper weapon that was probably a bit too hot but the speed felt right as you could dodge it at long range easily, mid range it took effort to dodge and right before you got too close you could rarely ever evade the hit.

A sniper weapon that can easily be dodged at long range? I think perhaps it is you that needs to rethink it, because that sounds like an utter failure of a sniper weapon.

[Takony]

Why of course kill mechs and make their pilots ******** so they cry deliciuos tears on teh interwebz!

On a more serious note: time to realise that in PVP focused burst damage direct fire weapons [PPC, AC/20] will always be superior to d(amage)o(ver)t(ime) weapons [lasers] and even scattershot burst weapons [SRM, LBX] _no_matter_what_.

If the rampant tears are enough to convince the devs to nerf PPC-s into uselessness, players will just switch to AC/20 and Gauss and call it a day, /thread.

Mind you, SRM being totally useless does not help brawling either... not to mention the underpowered LRM which makes fire support bleak, and spotters obslolete.

[Accursed Richards]

Takony, on 02 June 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Why of course kill mechs and make their pilots ******** so they cry deliciuos tears on teh interwebz!

On a more serious note: time to realise that in PVP focused burst damage direct fire weapons [PPC, AC/20] will always be superior to d(amage)o(ver)t(ime) weapons [lasers] and even scattershot burst weapons [SRM, LBX] _no_matter_what_.

If the rampant tears are enough to convince the devs to nerf PPC-s into uselessness, players will just switch to AC/20 and Gauss and call it a day, /thread.

Mind you, SRM being totally useless does not help brawling either... not to mention the underpowered LRM which makes fire support bleak, and spotters obslolete.

Saying "/thread" doesn't really work if you keep on writing after it.

[Voidcrafter]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you because every weapon in this game has an intended range and purpose. If one weapon fills all rolls then that weapon is broken when compared to all the rest. Go play 10 games and count the number PPC mechs vs non PPC mechs. You will always find more PPC mechs in the current meta because they are better. They shouldn't always be better all the time; they should be better for one specific role (like the rest of the weapons in the game).

Well my thoughts on the numbers of PPCs is just that those mechs, that are able to mount 3+ of them are giving very bad example to the rest of the player base.
This hell started with the release of the Highlander(all of them could fit 3xPPCs, and all of them exept one can pair it with a Gauss) and the STALKER(all of them can mount 4xPPCs).
Before that can you tell me a mech, that was actually able to do this and was not forced to suffer tons of downsides?
Well there was an AWESOME variant, but we all know that piloting the T-REX assault-feels-like-heavy has enough downsides, no matter what kinda arsenal you mount

It's not PPCs fault - it's the way people use them
3xPPCs is alright - it gives punch, but it does not make you that overpowered.
3+ is something that shouldn't happen.

So increase the heat, the cooldown, the speed, whatever...
What would that actually help?
Would it make people that boat the weapon stop using it without hurting all the rest of the player base, who is actually putting it in some reasonable builds?

Yea - the splatcats are gone now...
But who else is using the SRMs now?
Bad example, but kinda close one in my opinion.

[Demuder]

Grits N Gravy, on 30 May 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

I think screen shake is the worst way to handle the problem. As the "shake" will have to oscillate at least half of a mechs size per "shake" to make it hard to aim a jumping mech, which is so violent it may induce motion sickness. Plus it's easy to counter by firing on the down glide. IE jump high, turn off jets and fire as you fall, since no jets are on, you won't be shaking, and it's not hard to pull off.

That is not as bad as you think, because if the poptart has to reach maximum jump altitude to place a shot while gliding down, it would give the target a decent chance to move thus making it hard for the poptart to aim correctly even without the shake but still also have a chance to land a hit. Also, every jump would cause some damage to the legs, although detrimental to most heavy mechs, it is still a bit of damage.

LordBraxton, on 30 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

it is intended to be the only weapon worth taking

PPC is long range

ERPPC is extreme range

I love the hate towards poptarts, when stalkers are much more dangerous

The danger in the stalkers and poptarts is the same, badly designed PPCs. Unless you are talking about 6 LL stalkers which are as dangerous and as vulnerable as any assault should be.

OneEyed Jack, on 30 May 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

FFS, there are no "sniper" weapons because there are no effing snipers. This isn't effing CoD.

True, however the (ER)PPC, Gauss, instant convergence and poptart technique make that possible. We totally agree that this is not effing CoD and having half your team hugging the first rock they see and stalking from the shadows should not be a viable, let alone effective, playstyle.

Takony, on 02 June 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Why of course kill mechs and make their pilots ******** so they cry deliciuos tears on teh interwebz!

On a more serious note: time to realise that in PVP focused burst damage direct fire weapons [PPC, AC/20] will always be superior to d(amage)o(ver)t(ime) weapons [lasers] and even scattershot burst weapons [SRM, LBX] _no_matter_what_.

If the rampant tears are enough to convince the devs to nerf PPC-s into uselessness, players will just switch to AC/20 and Gauss and call it a day, /thread.

Quite the opposite. If you take away the ability to one shot untouched armor, sustained suppressive fire is becoming very viable. Also, an AC20 or a Gauss are much harder to fit on many mechs than 2 or even 3 (or 4 or 5 or 6 for that matter) PPCs - apart from their other handicaps, like slow missile speed for the AC20, ammo and a possible death trap for the Gauss.