14 replies to this topic

[Cold Cash]

Really enjoying the new meta, great to have brawlers and mediums back into the game playing interesting and fun roles again.

My brother and mate all have ac20 mediums(h4g? and ylw) and so i decided what the hell lets ac20 roll/troll as mediums and purchased the YLW. What a blast its been, before the patch i barely played my mediums/heavies as they just felt so lacking in the poptart meta with all those massive alphas.

Surprisingly the YLW and the other meds have been quite a treat to play, low damage but nice solid k:d(for my 250ping) and play well in the supporting role again.

I then purchased the C A and the C D and have found there limited loadouts to be quite useful as brawling support/skirmishers.

the cent A is ac10, 2 med lasers, 3 streaks = good harasser and light killer, i normally support a big un and help core or keep lights/meds off them.

Cent D im currently mixed about my loadout, the extreme speed has made me fuddle my tactics with this mech. The basic loadout of lb10x 2 med laser and lrm art is actually a solid loadout, but i think ill probably go lb10x, 2med lasers, 2 streaks(looking at 2 LL or xtra ammo) or my current gauss, 2 med lasers, 2 streak.

That speed keeps making me run ahead and try cap etc, which is just bad must restrain myself.

Anyway i love the new patch, my meds are excellent again and my awesome's(im a huge fan) are awesome again.

Nice PGI.

Edited by Cold Cash, 05 June 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[NRP]

Are you high?

[Koniving]

Mediums are excellent fighters. Unless you're a Blackjack.
Invaluable Centurion advice.

Edited by Koniving, 05 June 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[oldradagast]

Koniving: excellent video, as always. Inspiring to see stock mechs tear enemies apart.

I think the most recent patch with the resulting nerf to jump-sniping may have helped mediums to some level. Only time will tell.

[Cold Cash]

still enjoying the meta, lrms seem to have dropped off in use but are still powerful, and so many lights meds being used its goodtimes.

[Skadi]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dab374d3a0242da

Just try it... trust me.

[Koniving]

Notice what the Stalker had? 6 PPCs. (Before it was 'cool'.) Escorted by a large laser C1. In the caustic mission we lead the team along the 2-line, then saved the base, and returned to the field to rescue a lone stalker (it died by the time we got there but it's a miracle it lived that long). Won 4 out of 5 games. The game we lost, two of us were disconnected as soon as the match began.

Honestly I haven't seen a lot of issues with myself using mediums even in the current meta. They come up when the mediums are against anything else I run. The main thing is they engage and fight on their lonesome. Move as a group. Sweep in, attack, move on. Much like lights, medium mechs are more like fighter jets than tanks. Move together, attack the same targets, and don't forget the victory beer at the end of the match.

[PPO Kuro]

I like medium mechs. Love my TBT-7M and CN9-D and Yen-Lo-Wang.

[J I N]

Hi,
I started playing with a 4SP before the rocket nerf and had to drop it, because all Snipers took me apart like nothing...
So I started playing with Jager and Catapult, which was fun and works quite well up to today... with the last patch I wanted to get back to the good old Meds for more speed and a little less focused fire for me ( ). So I chose to play the Centurions (needed 2x Elite for my 4SP^^) and it's fun.

My Al gets normal stats for a Med.... and the CN9-D takes down everything up to an Atlas with one simple rule: shoot the sides!
Today I literally disarmed 3x Atlas, 2x Stalker, 1-2x Catapults, 3x Hunchback, 2-3x Jager(2 got XL engines... thanks^^) in 7 matches by taking their sidetorsos. (I don't have any Elite upgrade on my D yet^^)
I don't care about the kills, but if I can take out one side of an enemy, I can live long enought to kill him most of the times.

There are only 2 kind of players that I fear:
1. Good lights with speed and experience
2. The 10% of players, who know how to fight a Centurion and use focused fire on one part of my mech. (there doesn't seem to be many of them... once I got down to 9% with my "1 leg & no arm" D^^)

Has anyone else made this kind of experience?

Edited by JIN1987, 06 June 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Koniving, on 05 June 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Mediums are excellent fighters. Unless you're a Blackjack.
Invaluable Centurion advice.

That video pretty much has me on a mission to rebalance some of my LRM-capable mechs into more rounded builds. Great stuff... And awesome choice in music

[Koniving]

Wish it was my choice; that's 7NationArmy's vid. Was just leading the pack (we were going to split-screen it but my vid didn't record my voice, his didn't record his, so I discarded mine and we salvaged it into that). Believe it or not trial builds are a ~Lot~ more viable than people seem to think. The issue for some is armor, and for others its heatsinks and our never-ending desire to fire everything at the same time.

For example this one in the new 4X trial. (This ~is~ my own vid.)
In a group.

Pugging (and very early on with the mech while getting used to it.) Video actually gets good as my team is wiped out near 3 mins 40 secs.


I've been doing trial builds and/or factory defaults on every mech I get lately so I'll be uploading a lot more in the near future. Been collecting the footage for a youtube project to try and introduce the lore behind each chassis, as well as tips/tricks/etc. given in a lore friendly manner (threat analysis briefings given by a female commander, advice given by experienced pilots, etc.)

[oldradagast]

Seeing these videos reminds me that I still have much to learn about this game. It's one thing to put up big numbers thumping around in an Atlas, but success in something far "squishier" takes far more real skills.

I wish they gave out a small bonus whenever somebody played a trial mech. Might give folks more incentive to give them a whirl with an added reward for playing "hard mode" so to speak.

Edited by oldradagast, 07 June 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Koniving]

oldradagast, on 07 June 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

I wish they gave out a small bonus whenever somebody played a trial mech. Might give folks more incentive to give them a whirl with an added reward for playing "hard mode" so to speak.

Well the heat threshold I've been advocating for might actually make trial mechs much more viable. Consider this and remember that we're using an example number for simplicity:

Fact. On MWO for every heatsink you add, you increase both your heat dissipation rate (cooling power) and your heat threshold (maximum heat you can take at once).

Fact. STD heatsinks increase both dissipation and threshold by a set amount. "Double" (1.4) heatsinks increase this by 1.4* the set amount. True double heatsinks in the engine increase this by 2.0 times the amount.

Fact. The mathematical formulas forthcoming are used by the game. But the amount of 'dissipation' and the amount of 'threshold' are going to be simplified.

Let's say that the "amount" is 5 points dissipation, 10 points threshold for the sake of simplicity.

• 1 STD heatsink = 5 points dissipation, 10 points threshold.
  
• 1.4 "double" heatsink = 5*1.4 = 7 points dissipation, 10*1.4 = 14 points threshold.
  
• 1 True Double Engine heatsink = 10*2 = 10 points dissipation, 10*2 = 20 points threshold.

Seems fair, right?

• 10 STD heatsinks = 50 points cooling with 100 points heat threshold. Seems fair, right?
  
• 6 TDE heatsinks + 4 "1.4" DHS = 88 points cooling, 176 threshold.
  
• 10 TDE heatsinks = 100 cooling, 200 threshold.

Wait, we only have 10 heatsinks in all 3 cases!


What happens if we stuff as many as can be done with a standard 275 engine in terms of double heatsinks!

• 40 STD heatsinks = 200 cooling and 400 threshold. Build.
  
• 11 TDE + 11 "1.4" DHS = 187 cooling and 374 threshold. Build.

This is starting to get insane!

-------------

Seen this several times in many matches:

6 ER PPC stalker shoots twice, starts back up and shoots again. Waits 3 seconds. Starts up shoots again. That's 60 damage and (since PPCs wait 4 seconds) 60 damage (shutdown, wait 3 seconds, takes 1 second to start up) 60 damage.

That's 180 damage down the line in 12 seconds. Tabletop turn is 10 seconds; essentially the MWO stalker has annihilated 3 tabletop Atlases in a single turn and will only need to sit there for another 6 or so seconds to cool back to zero.
---------------
We're going to create a Stalker with an XL 340 engine, 19 TRUE DHS, and 6 STD PPCs (much lower heat) in Megamek (digital Tabletop) to see how this works. Summary.

• Stalker fires 6 PPCs. Generates 60 heat. Sinks 38 heat, increases heat to 22 (of a 30 point cap).
  
• Mech shuts down for 2 seconds.
  
• Piloting skill roll failed. Mech falls over. Receives damage. Pilot himself gets injured. Stays conscious.

Megamek's detailed responses:

Spoiler

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) gains 60 heat, sinks 38 heat and is now at 22 heat.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 7 : shuts down.

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (reactor shutdown).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 3 (reactor shutdown)); needs 8, rolls 6 : falls.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) falls on its front, suffering 9 damage.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) takes 5 damage to LL.
1 Armor remaining.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) takes 4 damage to CT.
9 Armor remaining.


Pilot of Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) "Ed Richa" must roll 8 to avoid damage; rolls 7 : fails.

Pilot of Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) "Ed Richa" takes 1 damage.
Pilot of Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) "Ed Richa" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 10 : successful!

Note that standard PPCs in Tabletop is 10 heat per PPC. MWO PPCs is 8 heat. TT heat threshold is 30, though the sinking is instant. 60 heat, sinks 38, gains 22. That's 73.33% heat and he got a premature shutdown.

Now with ER PPCs the same Stalker in a different test.
Summary:

• Stalker fires 6 ER PPCs. Generates 92 heat. Sinks 38 heat, increases heat to 54.
  
• Mech shuts down for 7 seconds minimum before turning back on; would then still be at 90%.
  
• Mech falls over. Receives damage. Pilot himself gets injured. Stays conscious in this test (usually he's knocked out).
  
• Spends rest of second turn getting up.

Spoiler

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) gains 92 heat, sinks 38 heat and is now at 54 heat.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) automatically shuts down.

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (reactor shutdown).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 3 (reactor shutdown)); needs 8, rolls 7 : falls.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) falls on its left side, suffering 9 damage.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) takes 5 damage to LL.
1 Armor remaining.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) takes 4 damage to LT.
5 Armor remaining.
(Since the target was completely annihilated, the testing match was over.)

What if instead...

• 1 STD heatsink = 1*X points cooling. No increase in threshold.
  
• 1 DHS = 2*X points cooling. No increase to threshold.
  
• If you have STD heatsinks, you get Y threshold.
  
• If you have DHS, you get 1/2*Y or 3/4*Y threshold.
  
• But since you get double cooling, DHS is still superior.
  
• Yet, because of the higher threshold with STD heatsinks, there's a practical reason to use them if you favor high alpha builds and want to use them without shutting down on the first shot; it'll just take you a LOT longer to cool down.
  
• Alpha builds have a lot more risk to them, but still yield the same rewards. Large number of them will phase out. The ones who still use them will treat it as a "challenge."
  
• We just balanced a crapload of builds and changed the meta to more balanced (or at least lower heat) builds.

Edited by Koniving, 08 June 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[oldradagast]

Hmmm... never really gave the heat scale much thought, but that does make sense, Koniving.

Something like your proposal, along with tweaking the "pixel perfect convergence across the whole map" issue would probably do a lot to end the boating assault rampage without having to play around with each specific weapon and mech.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if only heatsinks inside the engine get the full double bonus, than aren't light mechs getting the short end of the stick since they can't fit the stock 10 in the engine? If true, this is another small boon in favor of bigger mechs - they get the full 2.0 heatsinks while many lights and mediums do not.

[Koniving]

Typically lights get high end of the stick. The average light carries 250 or higher engine (except the commandos and Ravens 2x and 4x). Even the spider caps out at 255.

The issue grows when you start running medium mechs. It's true, though, the system also favors assaults and heavies that have the largest possible engines (but then you can't fit some of the good weapons without sacrificing armor).

In the example given from MegaMek (digital tabletop), the stalker basically had no armor at all.

Throw some support in ATDs 40?

But back on topic, I'll be running mediums again very soon for more vids.

Edited by Koniving, 08 June 2013 - 07:44 AM.