122 replies to this topic

[Vodrin Thales]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

PPCs are not way too good, the other weapon classes are too bad. Fix missiles and ballistics today, see PPCs lose popularity tomorrow, people.

This is incorrect. Damage is a shade too high overall as is. We'd be better off with missiles being the standard and bringing superior weapons down to that level of effectiveness.

[t9nv3]

Und3rSc0re, on 30 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I am guessing them exploding should be enough for a gauss boater. They are very heavy as well, also needs tons of ammo to sustain 3+ gauss rifles. So maybe that is enough but still we might need to look into it.

I dont think gauss is too bad. Dont think the Ammo explodes, but I'm pretty sure the guns themselves can explode on a crit for a decent amount of dammage. Since they take up 7 crit slots and 15 tons I think they are fine the way they are.

[Mister Blastman]

Victor Morson, on 30 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

PPCs are not way too good, the other weapon classes are too bad. Fix missiles and ballistics today, see PPCs lose popularity tomorrow, people.

[Rahnu]

I've been saying this for some time now.

The PPCs need their heat buff undone, and the lasers need their heat nerf undone. As it is, PPCs are simply too good in too many areas (moderate weight, actually fairly low heat generation for their damage, high damage, instantaneous damage application, fast projectile, 100% accuracy, enormous range), to the point where they supplant pretty much every other weapon system in the game.

The instant pinpoint damage in particular makes them FAR stronger than lasers, where you can't actually pinpoint target a subsystem because it's so easy to simply torso twist a weak part out of the way. Lasers need either a duration change, an increase in damage, or a decrease in heat to compensate for this incredibly massive disadvantage.

And then we need to fix pulses, machineguns, LB X-10s, flamers, and SRMs, and maybe then we'll actually have some freakin' balance for once.

[Livewyr]

Problem- people are dying to PPC alpha strikes.

Solution= make all other weapons more powerful too?

We might as well just bring armor back down to normal if that's the route people want to take..

[Lightfoot]

4 Large Lasers = 20 tons, 36 damage, 28 heat

3 PPCs = 21 tons, 30 damage, 27 heat, minimum range.

3 ERPPCs = non-functional in combat. Shutdown too often to win a shootout.

2 ERPPCs = 14 tons, 20 damage, 22 heat.

That's perfectly balanced actually. You want a Nerf not balance.

The fix for anti-boating is a hard heat cap, where the mech explodes from overriding automatic shutdown 80 percent of the time. To add that they need to add DHS 2.0 so players don't blow themselves up with Medium Lasers. Until then players will boat energy weapons and just override the shutdowns.

In MWO right now Medium Lasers are still the OP energy weapon, followed by MPLAS and LLAS. PPCs have a slight range advantage and have travel time instead of beam duration.

I think this is just that there will always be one weapon that is best. Right now I see more Large Lasers than PPCs.

Edited by Lightfoot, 31 May 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Messing with convergence is a bit problematic. The kicker is, though, that they're talking about adding camera shake for when you fire during a JJ and yet there is nothing messing with you when you're running at 150kph. That seems odd. Anyway, PPCs just need their heat added back to pre-change while maintaining the new 4s cycle. I, and several others, argued that the heat reduction wasn't what was needed but, hey, they don't always listen.

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 31 May 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Problem- people are dying to PPC alpha strikes.

Solution= make all other weapons more powerful too?

We might as well just bring armor back down to normal if that's the route people want to take..

Yes hey are, but as I have said a few times it is taking 6 PPC to do the damage 3 PPCs did for 29-30 years. 3 PPCs from an Awesome was supposed to be the very definition of deadly. Bu we have to use 4-6 to get that same level of lethality. Would it stop people from mounting 6 PPC? Maybe.

[Malavai Fletcher]

I dont know why they dont just slow the weapon down again,the problem with the increase in speed is you no longer have to lead off the target running laterally to you,so you have pinpoint convergence at a fairly decent range.Slow the weapon down,make people have to lead in front of the target and the ppc boat loses the ability to put all shots on one location.

Personally i would like them back to the way they were.

[Livewyr]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

... it is taking 6 PPC to do the damage 3 PPCs did for 29-30 years. 3 PPCs from an Awesome was supposed to be the very definition of deadly. Bu we have to use 4-6 to get that same level of lethality.

You lost me here, could you explain?

[Joseph Mallan]

in just about every other version of the Video game armor was TT standard, ou could put 3-4 PPCs on a Mech and have the same effect 6 PPCs are having now, you would be doing it cooler so you would have room or close range weapons to support your PPCs.

Folks are also complaining that twin AC20s are to powerful, but they are wrong also. it takes 2 ac20s to get he same effect as one in all other versions of MechWarrior and TT.

What everyone is yelling about is normal levels damage at I faced fr 30 yeas. We do need the right levels of heat o balance this better. 60 damage 60 to 90 heat.

[Livewyr]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

in just about every other version of the Video game armor was TT standard, ou could put 3-4 PPCs on a Mech and have the same effect 6 PPCs are having now, you would be doing it cooler so you would have room or close range weapons to support your PPCs.

Folks are also complaining that twin AC20s are to powerful, but they are wrong also. it takes 2 ac20s to get he same effect as one in all other versions of MechWarrior and TT.

What everyone is yelling about is normal levels damage at I faced fr 30 yeas. We do need the right levels of heat o balance this better. 60 damage 60 to 90 heat.

Ah, I see what you're saying- the double armor is the problem.
But here's the thing.

Each weapon is balanced against it's own weaknesses, in the case of PPCs, it's weakness is heat.
In the case of the Gauss, it's ammo, weapon risk, massive bulk, weight, etc..

One would think that's elementary; give Gauss more ammo, and reduce PPC Heat; there is however, a huge problem with that.

The PPC's solitary weakness is it's heat, it has no ammo limitation. It has no mounting limitation.. it's the same size as a double heat sink. (Nobody talks about boating 6 Gauss, because 6 Gauss weighs as much as a highlander Before ammo, nobody even talks about boating four Gauss, because four gauss rifles weigh as much as a dragon before ammo.. (and filling ammo for four gauss rifles would be obscene anyways.)

If you want to match the PPC with something a little closer, take the AC10.
Nevermind the bullet speed difference, the AC has the weakness of explosive and limited ammo, weighing almost twice as much as a PPC, and being twice the size of a PPC.

The PPC outclasses every ballistic heavy weapon, except in heat.
Lightest heavy weapon.
Smallest heavy weapon.
Unlimited Ammo (this will become even more obvious in 12v12)
No risk for carrying it.
-It's one real weakness was it's heat.

The Gauss and the AC10 will never be able to compete because they trade the heat disadvantage for everything else.
Gauss:
Heaviest heavy weapon.
Largest, second only to the AC20.
Limited Ammo.
Explosive weapon Risk.
-One advantage is heat.

AC10:
3rd Heaviest weapon.
3rd largest weapon.
Limited, explosive ammo.
-Advantage: less heat.

To argue for less heat on the PPC is to argue for lighter, smaller, higher-ammo ballistic weapons. (Essentially turning them into the same thing in order to balance them.)

Otherwise, you end up with the PPC meta.

[cyberFluke]

Nauht, on 30 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

PPC's are fine. They're doing damage in accordance wih canon and pretty much in line with all the other weapons.

What the problem is, as noted already, is the pinpoint, absolutely rock steady aim no matter how big you are and what you're doing.

While the current heat system is indeed ar$e first, this man here has spotted the *real* problem.

Frankly, weapons should miss more often. The game is far too easy at present. The previous MechWarrior titles' main focus was their Single Player Experience, against cpu controlled mechs. CPU mechs don't mind getting owned every time, so the games were geared to making the Single Player feel like the saviour of the story. Pinpoint accuracy was common in Single Player games, but is fading away as players get better, and better mechanics become standard design methodology.

In a competitive Multi Player environment, the whole point is to entertain our natural competitive instincts, rather than tell a story with you the player as the main protagonist. To this end the mechanics of the experience should be tailored to offer an easy to pick up, but difficult to master system. To offer up such a simplistic, thoughtless aiming mechanic with so little depth as PGI have is quite simply unfair to the new players on the receiving end.

All this, not even considering the fact that a major part of weapon balance is it's "to hit" modifier, it's accuracy. All this talk of weapon balance, and not one of you has mentioned the accuracy of a weapon having *any* bearing whatsoever.

The biggest problem here is, I believe, some of the players of any older MechWarrior title in a multiplayer setting. A lot of them seem to feel that their perceived "skill" from the older games should make them automatically better than most, their feeling of superiority is threatened and thus are against any deviation from pinpoint accuracy. To anyone who thinks pinpoint accuracy is acceptable I say, "grow a pair" and man up. If you're as skilled as you think you are, you'll be able to compensate for weapon inaccuracy with planning, awareness, strategy and teamwork. This is what MechWarrior is supposed to be, epic battles of towering walking war machines, not twitch two-shotting each other at super-1km ranges, not melting each other with missiles that fly round cover in seconds.

Edited by cyberFluke, 31 May 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[LordBraxton]

Massive gameplay changes aside

a PPC ways 7 tons

has the same heat to damage ratio as a medium laser (The gold standard of energy weapons)

hits like an AC\10

flies like a gauss rifle

all frontloaded damage.....

it is truly in a league of its own

PPC heat, is too damn low

[Rahnu]

Lightfoot, on 31 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

4 Large Lasers = 20 tons, 36 damage, 28 heat

3 PPCs = 21 tons, 30 damage, 27 heat, minimum range.

3 ERPPCs = non-functional in combat. Shutdown too often to win a shootout.

2 ERPPCs = 14 tons, 20 damage, 22 heat.

That's perfectly balanced actually. You want a Nerf not balance.

The fix for anti-boating is a hard heat cap, where the mech explodes from overriding automatic shutdown 80 percent of the time. To add that they need to add DHS 2.0 so players don't blow themselves up with Medium Lasers. Until then players will boat energy weapons and just override the shutdowns.

In MWO right now Medium Lasers are still the OP energy weapon, followed by MPLAS and LLAS. PPCs have a slight range advantage and have travel time instead of beam duration.

I think this is just that there will always be one weapon that is best. Right now I see more Large Lasers than PPCs.

I feel like this post is completely divorced from actual battlefield reality.

The big advantage of PPCs - a fast-moving projectile that does all of its damage instantly - is enormous in actual play. Someone with an equivalent tonnage in large lasers can never outshoot someone using PPCs, simply because the PPC user can easily and almost effortlessly apply damage to the same location repeatedly whereas the laser user will frequently see their shots fail to hit the same subsystem due to torso twisting and lateral movement (and it's even worse against poptarts, where lasers are quite literally worthless). Furthermore, the instantaneous damage means that a PPC user can easily take cover between shots while the laser-user is attempting to maintain fire on their target.

In an actual fight, the PPC user will win every time given these advantages. The only time - the ONLY time - a laser user can win against a PPC user is in a straight-up, open-field brawl with no cover. In all other situations the PPC user will be victorious. It's gotten to the point where I simply do not wish to play the game because I know that I am putting myself at a massive disadvantage if I ever wish to bring lasers to bear.

The ideal situation is one where laser users are extremely dangerous to PPC users because they will frequently fit faster chassis and the lasers themselves are capable of doing more damage per second than the PPCs can while also being more heat-efficient. As it is, the shorter-range weapons have no such advantage and you are putting yourself in serious danger just by attempting to get within the optimal range of even a medium laser.

[Livewyr]

Really can't stand

your posting

format braxton,

but I

like your post

anyways.

PPC Heat is


TOO DAMN LOW.

[Soy]

Oh I'm sorry did they change the damage from 10 to 10 since 2012? No?

Then the issue is other weapons aren't very good, even if they are fun to use. That's the issue. Is it really that difficult to wrap your head around.

[cyberFluke]

Zyrusticae, on 31 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I feel like this post is completely divorced from actual battlefield reality.

The big advantage of PPCs - a fast-moving projectile that does all of its damage instantly - is enormous in actual play. Someone with an equivalent tonnage in large lasers can never outshoot someone using PPCs, simply because the PPC user can easily and almost effortlessly apply damage to the same location repeatedly whereas the laser user will frequently see their shots fail to hit the same subsystem due to torso twisting and lateral movement (and it's even worse against poptarts, where lasers are quite literally worthless). Furthermore, the instantaneous damage means that a PPC user can easily take cover between shots while the laser-user is attempting to maintain fire on their target.

In an actual fight, the PPC user will win every time given these advantages. The only time - the ONLY time - a laser user can win against a PPC user is in a straight-up, open-field brawl with no cover. In all other situations the PPC user will be victorious. It's gotten to the point where I simply do not wish to play the game because I know that I am putting myself at a massive disadvantage if I ever wish to bring lasers to bear.

The ideal situation is one where laser users are extremely dangerous to PPC users because they will frequently fit faster chassis and the lasers themselves are capable of doing more damage per second than the PPCs can while also being more heat-efficient. As it is, the shorter-range weapons have no such advantage and you are putting yourself in serious danger just by attempting to get within the optimal range of even a medium laser.

I'm gonna repeat it until people effing listen.

cyberFluke, on 31 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Frankly, weapons should miss more often. The game is far too easy at present. The previous MechWarrior titles' main focus was their Single Player Experience, against cpu controlled mechs. CPU mechs don't mind getting owned every time, so the games were geared to making the Single Player feel like the saviour of the story. Pinpoint accuracy was common in Single Player games, but is fading away as players get better, and better mechanics become standard design methodology.

In a competitive Multi Player environment, the whole point is to entertain our natural competitive instincts, rather than tell a story with you the player as the main protagonist. To this end the mechanics of the experience should be tailored to offer an easy to pick up, but difficult to master system. To offer up such a simplistic, thoughtless aiming mechanic with so little depth as PGI have is quite simply unfair to the new players on the receiving end.

All this, not even considering the fact that a major part of weapon balance is it's "to hit" modifier, it's accuracy. All this talk of weapon balance, and not one of you has mentioned the accuracy of a weapon having *any* bearing whatsoever.

The biggest problem here is, I believe, some of the players of any older MechWarrior title in a multiplayer setting. A lot of them seem to feel that their perceived "skill" from the older games should make them automatically better than most, their feeling of superiority is threatened and thus are against any deviation from pinpoint accuracy. To anyone who thinks pinpoint accuracy is acceptable I say, "grow a pair" and man up. If you're as skilled as you think you are, you'll be able to compensate for weapon inaccuracy with planning, awareness, strategy and teamwork. This is what MechWarrior is supposed to be, epic battles of towering walking war machines, not twitch two-shotting each other at super-1km ranges, not melting each other with missiles that fly round cover in seconds.

[CGB Behemoth]

One more "PPC OP" topic. I hate PPC but this is ridiculous. You are not original dude. Is it hard for you to write it all in other such topic? Are you like to start new ones?

[cyberFluke]

LordBraxton, on 31 May 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Massive gameplay changes aside

a PPC ways 7 tons

has the same heat to damage ratio as a medium laser (The gold standard of energy weapons)

hits like an AC\10

flies like a gauss rifle

all frontloaded damage.....

it is truly in a league of its own

PPC heat, is too damn low

Wrong.

Everything else heat too high, current heat cap for mechs, too damn high.