122 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I liked PPCs back when there was an actual meta behind avoiding the giant slowly moving balls of death. If energy weapons are magically 100% effective at maximum ranges then the only obvious solution is to double the range of all ballistics and let the AC/20s pound those tarters from 1k out.

[Pando]

lockwoodx, on 01 June 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I liked PPCs back when there was an actual meta behind avoiding the giant slowly moving balls of death. If energy weapons are magically 100% effective at maximum ranges then the only obvious solution is to double the range of all ballistics and let the AC/20s pound those tarters from 1k out.

lol ac/20 snipers! Nah, just give the MG's AC/2 damage.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[FupDup]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

lol ac/20 snipers! Nah, just give the MG's AC/2 damage.

And range. Suddenly, MG Spiders become just as devastating as the devs have foretold...

Edited by FupDup, 01 June 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

lol ac/20 snipers! Nah, just give the MG's AC/2 damage.

I'd rather have more indirect fire non-canon weapons added such as grenade launchers, mines, caltrops, and sticky bombs. A medium would then be able to stand on the other side of the hill the tarter is on and lob bombs over onto his head.

Another non-canon counter to tarters could be magnetic dumb-weight bombs that do no damage but after 4 or 5 stuck to a mech they are no longer able to jump, period.

Nobody ever tries to counter speed in this game, they just try to solve every weapon solution with another weapon but I'd rather go after their mobility because mobility is typically the key factor in deciding the outcome of pvp matches regardless of the game.

Edited by lockwoodx, 01 June 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Pando]

lockwoodx, on 01 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I'd rather have more indirect fire non-canon weapons added such as grenade launchers, mines, caltrops, and sticky bombs. A medium would then be able to stand on the other side of the hill the tarter is on and lob bombs over onto his head.

Another non-canon counter to tarters could be magnetic dumb-weight bombs that do no damage but after 4 or 5 stuck to a mech they are no longer able to jump, period.

What? How about we just add in consumable nukes that auto-target anything with PPC's behind cover? How about that? Consumable fire and forget 1-shot thermo-nuclear missiles.

Oh, how are you going to get close enough to the poptart to stick some stickybombs on him?

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

What? How about we just add in consumable nukes that auto-target anything with PPC's behind cover? How about that? Consumable fire and forget 1-shot thermo-nuclear missiles.

The game is p2win already. Just pay for a vent server and you win. I'm providing solutions for the average joe pugger that fall within the lines of sanity, and not the absurditity you make it out to be.

[Livewyr]

Let's dissect this post.

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

My mockery huh. Tell you what. Put us on any map in any 1v1 or team situation, increase my heat, give me my 2 ERPPC 1GR will eat you alive with your ac10s and uac/5's or even better uac/2's or LRM's haha.

A 1v1 challenge demonstrating personal confidence and a guarantee of something which you cannot guarantee.
This is generally a no-no among smart people, it neither makes you look any better, nor does it advance a discussion on overall balance.

Lamens terms: Hurr durr you can go ahead and try and balance the one mechanic I just talked about, I'll whoop your #$%!
Stupidity.

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

One thing, I don't overheat and shut down. Neither do my buddies . I'm not concerned about brawlers and dps weapons because they are trash.

Two things wrong with this:
Ofcourse you don't overheat and shut down- PPCs aren't generating enough heat. You can brawl with them...
and
You don't need to shut down to incur heat penalties, they should start penalizing at 75% and penalizing heavily at 90%.. and even while shut down you should still be taking high heat penalty damage while you have high heat.. shutdown just makes you cool off faster.

Again.. try thinking about more than ONE thing at a time when making your "point."

I'll list them for you again.
Higher heat for PPCs.
Penalties for having high heat (NOT just shutdown)
Fix missiles to make them good, but not overpowered. (LRM damage/splash, SRM damage, Streak Damage/Agility)

(Edit: left out a word)

Edited by Livewyr, 01 June 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Pando]

lockwoodx, on 01 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

The game is p2win already. Just pay for a vent server and you win. I'm providing solutions for the average joe pugger that fall within the lines of sanity, and not the absurditity you make it out to be.

What part of thrown non explosive dumb weights are solutions for the average joe pugger?

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Let's dissect this post.



A 1v1 challenge demonstrating personal confidence and a guarantee of something which you cannot guarantee.
This is generally a no-no among smart people, it neither makes you look any better, nor does it advance a discussion on overall balance.

Lamens terms: Hurr durr you can go ahead and try and balance the one mechanic I just talked about, I'll whoop your #$%!
Stupidity.





Two things wrong this:
Ofcourse you don't overheat and shut down- PPCs aren't generating enough heat. You can brawl with them...
and
You don't need to shut down to incur heat penalties, they should start penalizing at 75% and penalizing heavily at 90%.. and even while shut down you should still be taking high heat penalty damage while you have high heat.. shutdown just makes you cool off faster.

Again.. try thinking about more than ONE thing at a time when making your "point."

I'll list them for you again.
Higher heat for PPCs.
Penalties for having high heat (NOT just shutdown)
Fix missiles to make them good, but not overpowered. (LRM damage/splash, SRM damage, Streak Damage/Agility)

You can't hold a candle to me intellectually or otherwise. I'll be available in PM's to further assert that fact.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

You can't hold a candle to me intellectually or otherwise. I'll be available in PM's to further assert that fact.

And so it is written, and so it is fact?

I accept your concession. (Isn't that fun...)

[Pando]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

And so it is written, and so it is fact?

I accept your concession. (Isn't that fun...)

I'm waiting for that PM. You smell of coward.

[Livewyr]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I'm waiting for that PM. You smell of coward.

What am I supposed to PM you with?

I have no problem having a PM conversation- unless it's a waste of my time.

[Pando]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

What am I supposed to PM you with?

I have no problem having a PM conversation- unless it's a waste of my time.

Well since you've conceded already what's the use? You're supposed to PM me your argument on behalf of PPC's with relevance to this thread. From there, I will respond.

Don't worry, I've challenged several and they've all hidden like yourself.

Wait, let me put it into language you'll understand.

hurr durr i can't think outside the box i give up

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Well since you've conceded already what's the use?

"I accept your concession."
Analyze that quote.

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

You're supposed to PM me your argument on behalf of PPC's with relevance to this thread. From there, I will respond.

You already have my argument, stated several times in this thread, feel free to PM me with your rebuttal.. the only thing that will change is the audience.

[InRev]

Someone needs to make a mech-based popcorn .gif for these kinds of moments.

[Strum Wealh]

Personally, I'd like to see:

1.) The per-salvo heat returned to the original values (which will make firing large groups of either PPC type more taxing to the 'Mechs).
PPC - 8 heat/shot back to 10 heat/shot
ER-PPC - 11 heat/shot back to 15 heat/shot

2.) The recycle time for both PPC models increased from 4.0 seconds to 5.0 seconds (thus allowing PPCs to retain their high burst damage, while lowering their maximum theoretical DPS).

3.) The introduction of incremental heat penalties.

• 'Mech speed at any given time is capped at (maximum rated speed)*(100-(current heat gauge reading percentage)).
  
• Torso rotation/elevation speed at any given time is capped at (maximum torso speed)*(100-(current heat gauge reading percentage)).
  
• Heat warning at 50% heat gauge reading.
  
• Overridable shutdown attempt at 75% heat gauge reading.
  
• Risk of ammunition detonation (starting at 80% heat gauge reading and increasing by 1% for each heat gauge percentage point over 80%; check/test made at 10 second intervals; still in effect even if the 'Mech is shut down).
  
• Non-overridable shutdown at 100% heat gauge reading.

Thoughts?

[Livewyr]

InRev, on 01 June 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Someone needs to make a mech-based popcorn .gif for these kinds of moments.

Indeed.

I usually have fairly constructive conversations with level-headed people raising valid points.
(One example I'm proud of was having a particular view on how to fix ECM, and having that molded/revised/changed by a conversation with a few people back on the General Discussion board. It was productive and when I placed the final product (argument/suggestion) on the official board, it was received well by those who read it...it was extensive since Electronics is a complex issue.)

I've no problem admitted I'm wrong/mistaken, when I'm wrong/mistaken.. until then, throwing stupid arguments and personal challenges does nothing except make the person look dumb and nonconstructive.

[Mokou]

Heat is not problem, problem what u can load >3 PPC on every mech.
We just need ppc energy subhardpoint.

[InRev]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

I've no problem admitted I'm wrong/mistaken, when I'm wrong/mistaken.. until then, throwing stupid arguments and personal challenges does nothing except make the person look dumb and nonconstructive.

Exactly! So please for the love of god, don't take this to PMs. If a discussion is valid and well-constructed it should be seen for all on the public message board that we may learn from or possibly retool any ideas presented therein.

(Plus, I love seeing ::serious business:: players puff out their chests because they non-ironically think that the self-assigned tag "competitive gamer" makes them relevant, rather than causing the exact opposite effect along with a pinch of pity)

[Livewyr]

Strum Wealh, on 01 June 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Personally, I'd like to see:

1.) The per-salvo heat returned to the original values (which will make firing large groups of either PPC type more taxing to the 'Mechs).
PPC - 8 heat/shot back to 10 heat/shot
ER-PPC - 11 heat/shot back to 15 heat/shot

2.) The recycle time for both PPC models increased from 4.0 seconds to 5.0 seconds (thus allowing PPCs to retain their high burst damage, while lowering their maximum theoretical DPS).

3.) The introduction of incremental heat penalties.

• 'Mech speed at any given time is capped at (maximum rated speed)*(100-(current heat gauge reading percentage)).
  
• Torso rotation/elevation speed at any given time is capped at (maximum torso speed)*(100-(current heat gauge reading percentage)).
  
• Heat warning at 50% heat gauge reading.
  
• Overridable shutdown attempt at 75% heat gauge reading.
  
• Risk of ammunition detonation (starting at 80% heat gauge reading and increasing by 1% for each heat gauge percentage point over 80%; check/test made at 10 second intervals; still in effect even if the 'Mech is shut down).
  
• Non-overridable shutdown at 100% heat gauge reading.

Thoughts?

15 heat might be a bit too punishing to ERPPCs IMO, but the concept stands.
Adjusted Speed cap is a good idea, although I would only start punishing speed at around 50% (so maybe MaxSpeed - HeatPercent/2)

I'm not on board with shutdown at 75%, I think that would limit intense fighting too much. I agree with making it suck to fight at that heat, but worrying about shutdown would really remove a lot the action in brawling I think.

Totally on board with ammo detonation chance starting at 80% (perhaps 10% chance every second above 80%? and then 20% above 90 percent, 30% at 100.. etc..)
It makes sense to me. Throw a bullet in a furnace.. it explodes.


-------------
I think the current shutdown mechanic is okay, but adding these penalties in would go a long way towards curbing alphastrike meta.

I would also add in visual effects of heat. (Like either steam, or that energy effect you see down a road on a hot day.)

[Demos]

In the light of PGI's history of nerfing weapons into the ground, I'd be not too harsh with the PPC'S. Also, I'd like to see the adjustment combined with a slight improvement of other weapon classes.
- LRM (damage back to 1.0 per missile
- SRM (damage back to 2.0 per missile, at least)
- AC/10 cooldown decreased to 2.25s
- S/M(P)L, Heat adjusted back to TT values
- Pulse Laser, beam duration cut back to 0.5s to have a middle ground between PPC and standard lasers.
- [LBX, Flamer, MG] --> would need significant improvement

--> This would mostly affect brawler and other anti-sniper/PPC builds.

As these were buffed, PPCs should slightly nerfed by heat increased by '1' to 9/12 (PPC/ERPPC) and the velocity reduced to 1500 m/s. No need for an insta-hit weapon. This would be better than AC's and Gauss (save AC/2).

Of course, heat penalties should also be implemented, but also affecting all builds.