649 replies to this topic

[Frosty Thundertrod]

The clans are what Karl Marks had in mind when he wrote the communist manifesto.

[Sidney]

guardian wolf, on 15 February 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

I was talking about the one that he mentioned under Vlad Ward, not the old Wolf, that went into exile, as I am a proud member of that Clan. I said they have much to prove as they are the newest clan

This is Clan Wolf. If you had bothered to look up what the 'Wars of Reaving' was, as I suggested (clicked the link even) you'd see that this is set during the Jihad. It's a good twenty years after the Refusal War.

It *is* the Clan Wolf under kaKhan Vladimar Ward.

*sigh*

Alright:

*3057*
-Refusal War ends. Vlad refutes Absorbtion, forcing Elias Crichell of the Falcons to create Clan 'Jade Wolf'
-Vlad kills Crichell and as Khan of Jade Wolf recreates Clan Wolf, bringing it back to life. He gives everything that Jade Wolf back to the original Clan
-Vlad initiates an increase in vehicle production and increases the amount of freeborn warriors to speed up losses from the Refusal War

*3060*
-Clan Wolf participates in the Great Refusal by the new Star league, challenging the invasion. Clan Wolf manages a tie against the St. Ives and Kai Allard Liao, and refused to participate ini the vote for the Refusal. Due to this, Clan Wolf is still allowed to renew the invasion in 3067.

*3060 - 3067*
-Vlad trades three planets in the Inner Sphere to the Hell's Horses in exchange for vehicles and supplies to increase Clan Wolf's tourman. The Horses attack the Bears and lose- both Horses and Bears form a truce to their feud and blame Clan Wolf.
-Bears retalitate, launching attacks against Wolf worlds.
-FRR stage raids in Clan Wolf in retaliation for the invasion a decade earlier
-Clan Wolf and Falcons clash on the other end of the invasion corridor

*3067*
-Star League disbands. Word of Blake threatens the Inner Sphere capitals in an attempt to force them into keeping the Star Leauge attack. War breaks out, and the 'Jihad' begins

Jihad/Wars of Reaving Spoilers:

Spoiler

*~3070*
-Hell's Horses invade Clan Wolf's occupation zone while they're distracted by the Jihad. Ice Hellions attack the Falcons.
-Word of Blake attacks Clan Wolf's Inner Sphere capital, Tamar, with dozens of nuclear weapons. This is known as the 'scouring of Tamar'. Damage is horrific- to prevent letting the Homeworld Clans from capitalizing on this, Vlad initiates a media blackout to prevent revealing to the Clan's enemies how badly Wolf is hurt.
-As things begin to go to hell in the Homeworlds, Vlad called in all his favors with Clan Coyote, Wolf's historic ally, and trades desirable Blood Legacies (such as the WInson Bloodname) and Wolf holdings to the Coyotes in exchange for sibkos and warriors.
-To warn the rest of the Clans from resuming an invasion of the Inner Sphere, Vlad brings the details of the WoB's attack on the Clan Wolf capital to the Grand Council. In response for his 'corrupted ways' (media blackout) the Grand Council Abjures Clan Wolf, exiling them to the Inner Sphere.

*Late 3071*
-Knowing that the Homeworlds are going to destroy themselves, and to prevent them from taking the Founder's Blood Legacies with them, Vlad sends the Watch (The Clans' name for their counter intelligence agency) to the capitol. Clan Wolf drops units onto Strana Mechty and seize Clan Wolf's former Blood Chappels. The new ilKhan, enraged, decrees that whatever Clan destroys the 'dark caste' (Clan Wolf) will earn the right to the Kerensky Blood Legacies.
-The Clans go into a frenzy, attacking Clan Wolf forces. While the Wolf forces prepare for their 'last stand', their enemies fight over the right to battle them. It goes so far as the Clans declaring trials against eachother for sniping positions, and holes through the Chappel's walls. While this is going on, the head of the Clan Watch unit (Star Colonel Ramil Kerensky) orders the exectution of all Scientist caste on site due to their witnesses, sacrificing his own honour in the name of the Clan. He orders the protagonists in the short story (linked above in the preview) to smuggle a copy of Clan Wolf's legacies out, while he remains behind in an attempt to account for the necessary sins of killing the scientists.
-Once the legacies are away, the Watch throws bleach around the chappels (an inside joke about bleach in a Clan's genepool ) and destroy the Chappels.
-The other Clans are horrified when Nicholas Kerensky's genetics are (seemingly) lost forever. They declare a Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolf
-In the Inner Sphere, Vlad meets with the other I.S Clan Khans and lets them know Kerensky's Blood Legacies (as well as the rest of Clan Wolf's) are safe and sound.
-They're impressed, and Marthe Pryde even gives him a slow clap, commenting something to the effect of "Well I'll be damned. A Wolf with balls. You keep this up Khan Ward, and we Falcons may respect you Wolves yet"

Again, I point to this background of the cover of Wars of Reaving, which depics Clan Wolf's forces making a last stand to protect Kerensky's Blood Legacies from the other Clans in December 3071- nearly 14 years exactly after the Refusal War.

[Sidney]

Frosty Thundertrod, on 15 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

The clans are what Karl Marks had in mind when he wrote the communist manifesto.

Not really. Laborers didn't rise up, and are not treated as equals.

The Clans draw insparation from numerous sources- in this case, it's Huxely's novel Brave New World.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Although, there isn't supposed to be anything like private property rights amongst the clanners, is there?
I can see why someone would make such a comparison.

[Sidney]

Lorcan Lladd, on 15 February 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Although, there isn't supposed to be anything like private property rights amongst the clanners, is there?
I can see why someone would make such a comparison.

Which is like saying the Clans are the Nazi Party due to their eugencis program and superiority complex.

...which is one facet of the Clans, and their eugenics is just a foil to the Inner Sphere nobility.

Jordan Weisman stated that FASA's games he helped create were a juxtaposition of two contrasting themes. World War I with Priates gave us "Crimson Skies" while the Medival Ages and the Space Age gave us "Battletech"

The Clans are the mongols, with a heavy dose of Brave New World. Their counterpart- old school Comstar (now the Word of the Blake) is the Catholic Church that held 'neutrality' while safeguarding knowledge.

You can contrast the Clans with Comstar quite easily, especially as foils- and even break the Crusader/Warden split with the secular Comstar and the religious Word of Blake split.

One of the authors (Think it was Herb in an interview) that said great stories happen when you pit foils against eachother- There was Comstar and the Clans in the early 90s, then we had the Wardens and the Crusaders in the Refusal War. The Jihad is the secular and religious order of Comstar fighting it out...and the Wars of Reaving has the Inner Sphere and the Home World Clans duking it out.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

@Sidney
excellent metaphors, I never really saw it that way but its a pitch-perfect way to explain it
Clans are space mongols with a heavy dose of Sparta.

[guardian wolf]

Sidney, on 15 February 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

This is Clan Wolf. If you had bothered to look up what the 'Wars of Reaving' was, as I suggested (clicked the link even) you'd see that this is set during the Jihad. It's a good twenty years after the Refusal War.

It *is* the Clan Wolf under kaKhan Vladimar Ward.

*sigh*

Alright:

*3057*
-Refusal War ends. Vlad refutes Absorbtion, forcing Elias Crichell of the Falcons to create Clan 'Jade Wolf'
-Vlad kills Crichell and as Khan of Jade Wolf recreates Clan Wolf, bringing it back to life. He gives everything that Jade Wolf back to the original Clan
-Vlad initiates an increase in vehicle production and increases the amount of freeborn warriors to speed up losses from the Refusal War

*3060*
-Clan Wolf participates in the Great Refusal by the new Star league, challenging the invasion. Clan Wolf manages a tie against the St. Ives and Kai Allard Liao, and refused to participate ini the vote for the Refusal. Due to this, Clan Wolf is still allowed to renew the invasion in 3067.

*3060 - 3067*
-Vlad trades three planets in the Inner Sphere to the Hell's Horses in exchange for vehicles and supplies to increase Clan Wolf's tourman. The Horses attack the Bears and lose- both Horses and Bears form a truce to their feud and blame Clan Wolf.
-Bears retalitate, launching attacks against Wolf worlds.
-FRR stage raids in Clan Wolf in retaliation for the invasion a decade earlier
-Clan Wolf and Falcons clash on the other end of the invasion corridor

*3067*
-Star League disbands. Word of Blake threatens the Inner Sphere capitals in an attempt to force them into keeping the Star Leauge attack. War breaks out, and the 'Jihad' begins

Jihad/Wars of Reaving Spoilers:

Spoiler

*~3070*
-Hell's Horses invade Clan Wolf's occupation zone while they're distracted by the Jihad. Ice Hellions attack the Falcons.
-Word of Blake attacks Clan Wolf's Inner Sphere capital, Tamar, with dozens of nuclear weapons. This is known as the 'scouring of Tamar'. Damage is horrific- to prevent letting the Homeworld Clans from capitalizing on this, Vlad initiates a media blackout to prevent revealing to the Clan's enemies how badly Wolf is hurt.
-As things begin to go to hell in the Homeworlds, Vlad called in all his favors with Clan Coyote, Wolf's historic ally, and trades desirable Blood Legacies (such as the WInson Bloodname) and Wolf holdings to the Coyotes in exchange for sibkos and warriors.
-To warn the rest of the Clans from resuming an invasion of the Inner Sphere, Vlad brings the details of the WoB's attack on the Clan Wolf capital to the Grand Council. In response for his 'corrupted ways' (media blackout) the Grand Council Abjures Clan Wolf, exiling them to the Inner Sphere.

*Late 3071*
-Knowing that the Homeworlds are going to destroy themselves, and to prevent them from taking the Founder's Blood Legacies with them, Vlad sends the Watch (The Clans' name for their counter intelligence agency) to the capitol. Clan Wolf drops units onto Strana Mechty and seize Clan Wolf's former Blood Chappels. The new ilKhan, enraged, decrees that whatever Clan destroys the 'dark caste' (Clan Wolf) will earn the right to the Kerensky Blood Legacies.
-The Clans go into a frenzy, attacking Clan Wolf forces. While the Wolf forces prepare for their 'last stand', their enemies fight over the right to battle them. It goes so far as the Clans declaring trials against eachother for sniping positions, and holes through the Chappel's walls. While this is going on, the head of the Clan Watch unit (Star Colonel Ramil Kerensky) orders the exectution of all Scientist caste on site due to their witnesses, sacrificing his own honour in the name of the Clan. He orders the protagonists in the short story (linked above in the preview) to smuggle a copy of Clan Wolf's legacies out, while he remains behind in an attempt to account for the necessary sins of killing the scientists.
-Once the legacies are away, the Watch throws bleach around the chappels (an inside joke about bleach in a Clan's genepool ) and destroy the Chappels.
-The other Clans are horrified when Nicholas Kerensky's genetics are (seemingly) lost forever. They declare a Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolf
-In the Inner Sphere, Vlad meets with the other I.S Clan Khans and lets them know Kerensky's Blood Legacies (as well as the rest of Clan Wolf's) are safe and sound.
-They're impressed, and Marthe Pryde even gives him a slow clap, commenting something to the effect of "Well I'll be damned. A Wolf with balls. You keep this up Khan Ward, and we Falcons may respect you Wolves yet"

Again, I point to this background of the cover of Wars of Reaving, which depics Clan Wolf's forces making a last stand to protect Kerensky's Blood Legacies from the other Clans in December 3071- nearly 14 years exactly after the Refusal War.

They are the Wolves reborn, not the originals. The originals left Clan Space and returned to the Inner Sphere, the rest that stayed, died with Ulric. I will give Vlad congratulations for his decisive, bold, and creative actions, but claiming to be the one true wolf is not what he is. He has reborn the Clan, and I hope that he can bring it as much, if not more glory to its name than the last Clan had. Sidney, I'm not arguing whether or not Clan Wolf is Clan Wolf, I respect Khan Vlad's Clan Wolf, but I am a follower of Ulric, and Phelan, the Wardens. We went into exile, though I am elated to the fact that Vlad has resurrected us in Clan space, and his deeds speak for him. But as I said, the new Clan is a much different beast from the old one, and still has much to prove.

EDIT: By the way, I just downloaded that, and am currently reading it, will probably take me a few days to finish

Edited by guardian wolf, 15 February 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Sidney]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 15 February 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

@Sidney
excellent metaphors, I never really saw it that way but its a pitch-perfect way to explain it
Clans are space mongols with a heavy dose of Sparta.

Wish I could take credit for the Mongols observation, but I learned about it from other posters on the Battletech forums. That was apparent the fanbase before Weisman pointed out how he had just combined the medivial times with the space age (An interview for Mechwarrior: DarkAge as I recall).

It breaks down somehing like:

Federated Suns: Anglosaxon and France
Draconis Combine: Imperial Japan
Lyran Commonwealth: Germanic states pre 1871
Cappellan Confederation: China
Free Worlds League: The Baltic States

The Republic, I believe, is clearly the rise and fall of the Roman Empire.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You do know in the DA timeline the Crusaders called themselves Mongols right? It was already in the lore.

[dr cyanide]

the clans mean only one thing to me: Targets.

[Bullwerk]

The clans are a worthy foe that's what they are. Skilled in the ways of combat and possessing technology beyond what we in the IS have they are here to test House Davion's resolve to persevere and bring true leadership to the IS. They are a challenge we will face and defeat on our path to bring righteous rule, personal freedom, and security that has not been seen since the days of the SLDF. House Davion is the rightful successor and the clans will not dissuade us.

Within the clans those returning as Wardens we would welcome to join us in our cause and lend their might to ours in securing a new future. As the true heirs of the SLDF their rightful place is at the side of First Prince Davion and the AFFS. The Crusader clans are another story, no more than another aggressor like the Kuritan's and Capellan's and worthy of nothing more than our disdain and their destruction.

[Sidney]

Jaroth Winson, on 15 February 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

You do know in the DA timeline the Crusaders called themselves Mongols right? It was already in the lore.

The Mongols are exclusive to the Jade Falcons* only, and a new philosophy (Known as the Mongol Doctrine) that came about Malavina's brother was killed by Tara Campbell.

Much like the Freeminder movement is exclusive to the Ghost Bear's Omega Galaxy.

The Warden/Crusader line has been grey for years now, however, and no longer really apply in the 3070s onwards anyway. The new camps that have evolved from the Crusader/Warden camps are 'expansionist' (Wolf, Falcon, Ghost Bear, Hell's Horses, Snow Ravens) and "isolationist" (Wolves in Exile, Nova Cats, Diamond Sharks, Homeworld Clans)

Note that expansionist/isolationist is mostly used by the fans and the writers (I believe) and haven't really cropped up in the sourcebooks since the Great Refusal.

* - Some Hell's Horses- who are classified as a 'Warden' Clan issued a Trial against Malavina and were eventually de facto absorbed.

[Jaroth Corbett]

True but the Falcons are for all intents & purposes "The Crusaders".

[Sidney]

Jaroth Winson, on 15 February 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

True but the Falcons are for all intents & purposes "The Crusaders".

According to who?

Crusaders were first introduced in the 'Blood of Kerensky' trilogy written by Stackpole. Vlad, Garth Raddick and Conal Ward were all introduced before any of the Falcon characters- and they were all Crusaders.

Speaking of Crusaders and Clan Wolf, the first Clan sourcebook was Clan Wolf's- it contains excerpts of Clan Wolf's Remembrance, which includes on passage from when Nicholas was still alive and claims that the first Clan to cut through the 'barbarians' of the Inner Sphere to take Terra will have their Khan become the new Star Lord of a ressurrected Star League.

What about the Star Adders?

The Ghost Bears and Hell's Horses were both Crusaders initially as well.

Then, there is of course, the overly harsh Smoke Jaguars that were *the* 'bad guy' Clan to go down.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I meant at that time.

[Gremlich Johns]

Frosty Thundertrod, on 15 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

The clans are what Karl Marks had in mind when he wrote the communist manifesto.

Fair enough, but look at what the Communists did to his idiom. Man got in the way and then there were the haves a lot, and the haves nothing (hmm, like nothing changed from the Tsarist times). At least the social experiment that marx created went a little longer in the BT fiction with the Clans and there was as close an approximation to a true functioning socialist society as was possible when men are involved. Star Trek was another reflection of Marx's work.

@ Jack Gallows, I stand corrected on one point - The Star League did indeed Fall, it was the SLDF that left. In fact, one could argue that when the Star League died, Kerensky took the last vestige and best part) with him.

[Jack Gallows]

Gremlich Johns, on 15 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

@ Jack Gallows, I stand corrected on one point - The Star League did indeed Fall, it was the SLDF that left. In fact, one could argue that when the Star League died, Kerensky took the last vestige and best part) with him.

Thing is, everyone who was a part of the SLDF or Star League gets to make that claim (which is kind of the reason for the Succession wars obviously,) regardless of how things turned out. The SLDF forces that left (remember that not all did, good example is the Eradani Light Horse,) also had problems when they left, as did the Inner Sphere....so war followed and remained a constant thing for both regardless of Kerensky's ideals.

Nothing really changed except names and ideas, just as some would say one facet of the Clans doesn't define the Clans...it's the exact same for the IS. Differences in approach and culture over time, but war is the constant, and war is a hard pill to swallow when one makes the claim that they're more right then someone else.

The Star League fell....and the better part died in the fighting trying to make a more peaceful galaxy.

[Joanna Conners]

Frosty Thundertrod, on 15 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

The clans are what Karl Marks had in mind when he wrote the communist manifesto.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand Marxism then.

[Joanna Conners]

Gremlich Johns, on 15 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Fair enough, but look at what the Communists did to his idiom. Man got in the way and then there were the haves a lot, and the haves nothing (hmm, like nothing changed from the Tsarist times). At least the social experiment that marx created went a little longer in the BT fiction with the Clans and there was as close an approximation to a true functioning socialist society as was possible when men are involved. Star Trek was another reflection of Marx's work.

@ Jack Gallows, I stand corrected on one point - The Star League did indeed Fall, it was the SLDF that left. In fact, one could argue that when the Star League died, Kerensky took the last vestige and best part) with him.

I've got to disagree on the Star Trek comparison as well. There is no economy in Star Trek. There are no classes and as such there is no class warfare. Neither did the Earth utopia come about as a result of anything Marx envisioned. Marxism is utterly irrelevant to Star Trek.

The whole idea is that mankind came together when we learned we weren't alone in the universe. All of our petty differences and struggles were put aside and humanity united in ways never before imagined. It had nothing to do with any pre-existing ideology or philosophy of any form.

Likewise, the Clans of BT don't remotely resemble Marxism. They might more closely resemble an apolitical Socialism on economics with a Fascist focus in their overall society. If I had to compare the Clans to a single political ideology it would have to be Fascism.

[Bluey]

Meteorblitzkrieg

Edited by Bluey, 29 February 2012 - 03:39 AM.