194 replies to this topic

[Bobdolemite]

Updated (Artemis+Tag Info completed for those interested): http://mwomercs.com/...-damagescreens/



So I got tired of a lot of the baseless claims about weapon balance, which weapons are OP and which weapons are under-rated etc. Decided to go ahead and arm up a true blue LRM boat with as many launchers and ammo as I could carry (while still maintaining a semblance of standard for heat) and just see how well I could do. Ended up with a very slow - very hot Stalker 3F armed with 4 x LRM 20 and 1440 ammo. No TAG or Artemis to complicate things.

On 5/27/2013 I queued 10 matches (PUG Only) and fired all ammo in each match. An honest no BS attempt was made on my part to land every missile I could, and sometimes I was still firing at the end of the longer matches (didnt just spam all my ammo at one time). Since these are not videos you will have to take my word for it (but I swear to its authenticity and lack of bias)

Data with Screenshots (click spoiler)

Forgot to add: Stalker 3F- Fully Mastered - No Modules - No Bap (standard sensor range)

Match 1

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 326 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis -

Spoiler

Match 2

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 596 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 3

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 387 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 4

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 429 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 5

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 394 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 6

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 320 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 7

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 426 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 8

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 565 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 9

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 337 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

Match 10

STK - 3F - 4 x LRM 20 - 1440 Ammo (All fired) 195 Damage - No other weapons equipped - No TAG - No Artemis

Spoiler

///

Going for maximum missiles without using TAG or Artemis this is about the most missiles you can carry and still be effective with regards to heat and speed for the 3F chassis(IMHO)

Let the numbers speak for themselves. Do take into consideration though that this is 80 missiles per salvo, many more than you are likely to see in a given match. Back in its heyday my largest salvo was 60 and tended to stray toward 45 in more balanced builds. This is a worst case scenario mech. I may decide to do the same thing this weekend for TAG and Artemis both separately and combined if people are interested. If not ill busy myself just playing =) - Enjoy

Edited by Bobdolemite, 03 June 2013 - 09:38 PM.

[blinkin]

were you pugging or on a team?

i find i do far better with my LRM hunchback when i am with a group of friends and they relay target information over skype. also it would be better if we knew how many missiles you fired.

i know back before the missile debacle my hunchback 4SP could reliably crank out between 500 and 700 damage with the occasional match of over 1,000 damage. i haven't tried the LRM since the missile changes. i know the changes to SRM haven't really hurt my catapult C4 with it's 4xSRM6.

i would like more actual information to break through all of the hyperbole that rules the forums. i would do it myself, but my connection in the past few months has not been reliable enough for effective play.


PS: thank you for putting in the time to collect data.

Edited by blinkin, 01 June 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Bobdolemite]

The info is on there but mebe theres a better way to list it where people will see. 1440 ammo all shots fired every match. There were three matches where I didnt use all ammo and those were not used in this sample. Only used matches where I fired all missiles.

These were all PUGS the only time I team is with one friend very rarely, none of the matches in the sample are from teamed matches.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I ran a few games with my 5S Stalker today. 2 AMS with a ton of ammo each, 5 MLs, and 2 ALRM15s with 7 tons of ammo. 275 standard, and pretty much the whole extra payload taken up with DHS.

The only games I did under 300 damage were when the enemy team bypassed my friendlies and I found myself in brawling range with a half dozen hostiles.

Typically I got damage outcomes similar to yours. I ran through most of my missile payload in most of my games (down to 240 or fewer LRMs in my bins by the end).

Even had a game where my team basically said they were gonna troll me by not targeting people after I asked them to. Still had 360+ damage, 3 kills, and 5 assists.

The damage is low. However, the damage is very focused, like Streaks, on the CT.

My tentative conclusion is that LRM damage needs to go up a goodly bit, but spread needs to increase a bit too and tracking/splash needs to be fixed. It's bad for LRMs to hit super hard. It's also bad for them to focus a single location. You almost get a balanced outcome when they do one or the other of those things, and you definitely see them becoming absolutely OP when they do both.

[Victor Morson]

Given you could do twice that with a direct fire Stalker boat if left unchecked, I am not impressed.

[SirLANsalot]

Bobdolemite, on 01 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The info is on there but mebe theres a better way to list it where people will see. 1440 ammo all shots fired every match. There were three matches where I didnt use all ammo and those were not used in this sample. Only used matches where I fired all missiles.

These were all PUGS the only time I team is with one friend very rarely, none of the matches in the sample are from teamed matches.

then you are showing one very easy thing to keep in mind. Don't pug with an LRM boat. Always use the buddy system™ with LRM's.

My pug matching with LRMs are quite horrid too, but when in a 3-4 man, there VERY different.

[Shalune]

There's a problem with relying on data like this which has shown up in other threads too, pure damage is not a reliable indicator of killing power. An AC20 Jager with proper aim behind a target can drop someone with 1-2 salvos, carry a team and end up with less damage done than these LRM matches. The less accurate a weapon, the more damage it must be capable of to maintain the same killing power. I would never argue LRMs should have the same killing power as AC20s. But we need to remember that much of your damage is hitting sections that did nothing to contribute to a kill, even by teammates.

[Bobdolemite]

Victor Morson, on 01 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Given you could do twice that with a direct fire Stalker boat if left unchecked, I am not impressed.

After I was finished with the 10 matches I couldn't help but feel underwhelmed. That is to be expected in part because it was solely a boat and most of the time I roll something with multiple capabilities. I dont have any screens to back this up but I roll a Jenner with 2 LL's that outperforms most of those scores. Running more substantial weapons in the same stalker would yield at least 400 dmg even if you were less than effective or got rolled halfway through the match.

As to rolling with teams everything is far more effective when you have backup heh (I have been very tempted lately to try a team)

*Note* As low as the damage was in some matches I tended to get more kills than usual, probably due to sustained damage across torso *Note*

Edited by Bobdolemite, 01 June 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[blinkin]

Bobdolemite, on 01 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The info is on there but mebe theres a better way to list it where people will see. 1440 ammo all shots fired every match. There were three matches where I didnt use all ammo and those were not used in this sample. Only used matches where I fired all missiles.

These were all PUGS the only time I team is with one friend very rarely, none of the matches in the sample are from teamed matches.

those are pretty good scores for pugging with LRM.

Victor Morson, on 01 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Given you could do twice that with a direct fire Stalker boat if left unchecked, I am not impressed.

i don't think the point was to impress anyone. this is data mining to determine objectively how balanced LRM are.

[Steel Claws]

I am going to assume a few things and say that you were at the back of the map firing salvos at long range at anything you could lock on. Of course you missed. You will almost always miss at ranges of greater than 400 meters because the targets will either break lock or get into cover. Firing at long range is a waste of ammo and ineffectiive. I don't load that many missiles (55 with 900 reloads) and I got 4 kills and 4 assists with 500ish points yesterday on Canyon (with all it's cover) yesterday by doing what I normally do - get within 400 meters before shooting. I always have backup weapons - not having them is asking to die.

Secondly the stalker only has missile slots with 6 and 10 holes so to get an LRM 20 out you have to fire in a long chain. This also decreases the likelyhood of a hit because the extra time between launch start and launch finished. You can loose lock half way through the salvo. The Catapult C4 does better with just it's 2 LRM 20s for this reason. It fires all forty in one big salvo.

If the point of this post is to say that missiles are ineffective, I think I'd have to call BS based on my own experiences.

[Victor Morson]

Bobdolemite, on 01 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

After I was finished with the 10 matches I couldn't help but feel underwhelmed. That is to be expected in part because it was solely a boat and most of the time I roll something with multiple capabilities. I dont have any screens to back this up but I roll a Jenner with 2 LL's that outperforms most of those scores. Running more substantial weapons in the same stalker would yield at least 400 dmg even if you were less than effective or got rolled halfway through the match.

As to rolling with teams everything is far more effective when you have backup heh (I have been very tempted lately to try a team)

*Note* As low as the damage was in some matches I tended to get more kills than usual, probably due to sustained damage across torso *Note*

Sorry if I sounded misjudging there, I've literally been in so many LRM threads where people have held up that kind of damage as proof LRMs are "working great" so it's rare to see someone present it as an underwhelming failure like that. I just assumed the worst, I think I'm forum shell shocked.

Very interesting post with a lot of reasonably collected data.

[Aim64C]

Steel Claws, on 01 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I am going to assume a few things and say that you were at the back of the map firing salvos at long range at anything you could lock on. Of course you missed. You will almost always miss at ranges of greater than 400 meters because the targets will either break lock or get into cover. Firing at long range is a waste of ammo and ineffectiive. I don't load that many missiles (55 with 900 reloads) and I got 4 kills and 4 assists with 500ish points yesterday on Canyon (with all it's cover) yesterday by doing what I normally do - get within 400 meters before shooting. I always have backup weapons - not having them is asking to die.

Secondly the stalker only has missile slots with 6 and 10 holes so to get an LRM 20 out you have to fire in a long chain. This also decreases the likelyhood of a hit because the extra time between launch start and launch finished. You can loose lock half way through the salvo. The Catapult C4 does better with just it's 2 LRM 20s for this reason. It fires all forty in one big salvo.

If the point of this post is to say that missiles are ineffective, I think I'd have to call BS based on my own experiences.

I run a C4 with 2xALRM20s and 8 tons of ammo.

It's hard to blow all of that ammo in a single match. Kills are sporradic. Most of the kills you get with LRMs, these days, are from hammering on someone who is being swarmed by your team - and your missiles happen to register as the killing shot.

Tactical play with LRMs is completely gone. You can't stalk like you used to. You could push a wide flank in a catapult and really give the enemy team a headache as they were caught between two widely separated angles of fire.

I've danced around a Cataphract in a Jenner as it was getting hammered by a fellow C4 ... 6 salvos of at least 30 LRMs, and the thing was barely into orange armor on the center torso. Completely useless for strategic play - if I'd have been a medium mech, I would have been dead long before the support fire ammounted to anything worth talking about.

Right now - the only reason to use LRMs is to deliberately challenge yourself by being a gimp.

There's a reason I run in my Jenner so much, now. It can out-damage, out-kill, and out-last all of my catapult builds. They have no real use.

Even in a team environment with excellent communication - they are hardly viable by comparison to other weapon systems. Teamwork applies relatively evenly to almost all other weapon systems and exacerbates weapon imbalances. At this rate, a team of Jenners is far more productive than a duo of catapults with a pair of dedicated spotters.

The ammount of ammunition you need to carry to make LRMs have any kind of appreciable impact on the battlefield is prohibitive. Not to mention, your ability to put damage onto a target in a timely manner is completely gone. You're dealing unfocused damage at a fraction of the rate of what other chassis can accomplish with pinpoint accurate weapons.

LRMs are a purists' weapons. Which only works if you're facing off against other purists.

[scJazz]

Spoiler

This match I played was the clearest, most perfect, example of the live in game effects of missile fire I have yet experienced.
Catapult CPLT-A1 mewkitteh
(yes I know it sucks but I'm still a 1.2m CB from Artemis and XL Engine)
2 LRM15 (2 tons ammo = 360 missiles)
4 SSRM2 (1 ton ammo = 100 missiles)
BAP + AMS
91% Max armor
Standard Speed
The Scenario
Map: Alpine
Match Type: Conquest
Starting Position: Southern side attacking toward Radio Tower
I took zero damage during the approach march despite GR and ERPPC fire by using a combination of zig-zagging, cover, and jumping randomly. Upon reaching the final ridge in front of Epsilon I turned East (from the western end of that ridge)and began taking a never ending stream of LRM fire from the Radio Tower. Two CPLTs and one TBT were the LRMBoats. I fired one volley of LRMs at a CPLT while breaking lock. Astonishingly, this uphill, over cover volley landed at least 1 missile because the target ducked back behind cover then walked back to exactly the spot he stood, when I fired, in to reacquire lock on me. Despite the estimated 90 LRM volleys being fired at me the whole time with my Left Ear facing them not one component went beyond yellow damage. I moved across the entire length of that ridge with my AMS buzzing constantly and Betty screaming in my ear.
Having moved the length of the ridge I finally turned north, directly toward Epsilon which lay just 500m or so away. I fired 1 SSRM2 volley at aforementioned TBT. Then fired 4 more LRM volleys at the same TBT or a Cataphract. Once the epic brawling firestorm around Epsilon concluded I turned and found myself 100m away from an Atlas AS7-DDC heading directly at me.
This is where things become the most perfect example of Live Match Play with Missiles. Although the fact that I passed in front of 3 LRMBoats firing 80 to 120 missiles per volley while moving along the reverse slope of that ridge without any serious damage at all is telling. I fired 4xSSRM2 directly into the face of the Atlas at point blank range, jumped over him, and spun around. He was at 94% health when I got behind him. From this point on I was never further away than 210m. I followed him from Epsilon all the way around Armpit before he died. Always behind him or behind him to his right. I screwed up 2 4xSSRM2 volleys along the way.
I fired 150 LRMs and 76 SSRMs into this Atlas. All missiles were fired as mentioned not more than 210m away with direct LOS. More or less half from directly behind him and the rest behind and to his right at the same time as one or more teammates also fired on him. I finished my end of the fight going dry firing my last two volleys at the Cataphract I hit earlier.
The match ended about 15 seconds later. One side comment, I was the only LRMBoat on our team, the other side had 3. It was a roll 7 vs 0 at the end. I mention this not for epeen but as a warning! The side with the most LRMBoats will lose. The enemy team had advantage of Focus, Position, and Height. My team scattered like Roaches in the light attempting to Cap. They only got focused because of Enemy Fire and Location. Except for our Jenner which I saw moments after the start but never again.
If you managed to get to this point in the post here comes the epically funny payoff! The reveal! The place where all of the many words above makes sense.
Match Score: 7th place... only the Jenner did worse.
Damage: 121... yeah 121!
Kills: 1 the Atlas (He did have an AMS) ... I was in fact surprised that I got the kill shot given his final moments surrounded as he was by everyone still walking
Assists: 3 the Catapult who dodged and walked back into fire, the TBT, and the Cataphract
Spotting bonus: 5 - apparently at best only half my team knew where the (R or LOCK *props to BoPop*) key was located (Yes, others on my team had LRMs. I was the only LRMBoat)
Total Max Damage Possible: 474 ((360 LRMs * 0.9) + (100 SRMs * 1.5)) not including splash damage which has been largely zeroed out
Actual Damage in Match as Percentage: 25.5%
Possible Damage fired at the rear or rear/right of an Atlas DDC: 249 (150 LRMs and 76 SRMs at optimum with direct LOS and zero to negligible tracking). Max possible damage done to the Atlas 118 although realistically it was far lower.

I wrote this post earlier and considered starting a thread with it. It is very long. It does illustrate in detail concepts included in OP so I decided to post.

[Volthorne]

Steel Claws, on 01 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I am going to assume a few things and say that you were at the back of the map firing salvos at long range at anything you could lock on. Of course you missed. You will almost always miss at ranges of greater than 400 meters because the targets will either break lock or get into cover. Firing at long range is a waste of ammo and ineffectiive. I don't load that many missiles (55 with 900 reloads) and I got 4 kills and 4 assists with 500ish points yesterday on Canyon (with all it's cover) yesterday by doing what I normally do - get within 400 meters before shooting. I always have backup weapons - not having them is asking to die.

Secondly the stalker only has missile slots with 6 and 10 holes so to get an LRM 20 out you have to fire in a long chain. This also decreases the likelyhood of a hit because the extra time between launch start and launch finished. You can loose lock half way through the salvo. The Catapult C4 does better with just it's 2 LRM 20s for this reason. It fires all forty in one big salvo.

If the point of this post is to say that missiles are ineffective, I think I'd have to call BS based on my own experiences.

My, my, aren't we rather snarky? Honestly, I'm not sure why you even bothered posting.

[Ningyo]

Actually I started another thread earlier with similar though slightly broader data (same forum). And some of the data I came up with was very interesting.

For instance It appears the spread on smaller salvos is more dense so you get more hits. so a LRM 15 in a 10 tube slot will get almost as good of damage as a LRM 20 in a 20 tube slot. This would likely be reversed if many people used AMS, but as of right now at least in my ELO almost no one does.

I was running a Highlander 733 with 2 LRM 20, and 2 LRM 15 did 12 matches without artemis, and 12 more with. recorded fired/hits/damage off end of every match from stats page.

I found that the damage from hits is NOT 0.9 it fluctuates, though someone in thread said devs once said Stats page is inaccurate (anyone else heard this? and it is same as end of match damage).

In fact over 12 matches without Artemis the LRM 15's actually did more damage than the LRM 20's (though if you exclude the 1 match LRM 20's got destroyed in early they only did 98% as much damage). With Artemis though they only did 87% of LRM 20 damage. Still saying smaller salvos is worse is rather inaccurate. They are better unless you lose lock fast, or enemy has AMS.

I only have 24 matches of data total yet though, so it still is too small of a pool for statistical relevance.

Edit: I would like to note I also did lower damage only 200-370 a match unless I got too close to the brawl. Maintained a 17/15 W/L, and 31 kills, 17 deaths. So I found it to be a perfectly acceptable though not great mech to run though mostly because no one runs AMS much. Too be fair if the OP weapons got nerfed to where they should be I think LRMs are now only slightly underpowered, but very close to right.

Edited by Ningyo, 01 June 2013 - 06:19 PM.

[KrazedOmega]

The thing I'm most interested in is how you managed to win 8 (9)? out of 10 matches.

Elo has been screwing me over hard the last few days.

[Steel Claws]

Volthorne, on 01 June 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

My, my, aren't we rather snarky? Honestly, I'm not sure why you even bothered posting.

Simple, I'm tired of people setting back at 800 plus meters and launching away at anything that moves and then setting around complaining that LRMs don't work. It's really a matter of expectations, did they really expect them to work at those ranges and under whatever conditions existed at the time. We have no information about how he conducted his test - for all we know he blind fired the whole lot into the side of a mountain or he could have been out of range or within minimum range or lost locks - again zero damage. Then there's shooting them at light mechs which is usually an act of futility as well. Did the targets have lots of AMS - again we don't know. The effectiveness of LRMs, more than any other weapon by far, are heavily dependant on how they are used, where they are used, and who they were used against. This is my point and the reason I posted.

I still use LRMs and they still work for me most of the time - yes you have the good games and the bad but that doesn't mean they are broken. River city is an almost certain bad game for instance. Even in his ten games he had some fairly good games. What I am trying to point out is that perhaps the weapon system isn't as broken as the manner or conditions in which they were used. A PPC is a heck of a weapon system but if you are shooting at tagets beyond max range or within minimum range does that make them broken or was the manner in which they are used flawed.

LRMs are not and should not be a "rip the other mech to shreds" type of weapon. Their use is to chip away armor. They are good at that. I took LRMs twice last night - once was the four kill drop and the other I got two. In the last drop I took all the armor off the CT of an Atlas RS and turned it's internal orange in less than five salvos - and this was done at ranges I don't normally like to fire at (600 - 700 meters) but the conditions were right - he didn't have good cover or AMS. I killed it with the next salvo. Just because you can't go out and rip mechs up like you did when they were truely broken doesn't mean they are broken now. Would you all trade the PPC armagedon for another LRM armagedon?

Edited by Steel Claws, 01 June 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I'm playing my 3 ALRM15 2 Large Laser Highlander quite a bit right now because I just unlocked elite with double efficiency unlocked.

Due to being on a $300 laptop the last few days I really rely on the LRM's.

I had one game on Alpine where the 2 Large Lasers came into play due to very static enemies and I reached 600 damage.

But normally when I'm just using the LRM's, with 8 tons of ammo, Artemis, BAP, TAG, Adv Decay, Adv Sensor Range, I'm averaging about 300 damage.

I may get a kill or 2, but it's not real. It's not because of "me".

And keep in mind I am not a sit behind cover LRM user, I try to make sure I have LOS and I'm sitting about 400-600M so that my missiles hit.

They really stink. For the amount of tonnage and extra crap I've thrown in they just don't work.

My 2 Large Lasers when I'm on my good rig normally outdamage them. So 10 tons. vs.24 tons, plus 8 for ammo, plus 1 for tag, plus 1.5 for bap. And of course a module slot for decay.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 01 June 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Screech]

All this really shows is spamming out a blob of missiles is not the most effective use of LRM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Screech, on 01 June 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

All this really shows is spamming out a blob of missiles is not the most effective use of LRM.

What is the effective use?

Because I've tried the fast moving Centurion with 2xALRM15's which was very adequate for a medium mech before the hotfix 3 months ago nerfed them. It's able to move 98kph with speed tweak and is pretty good at dictating where it is. Most of my fights with it are me strafing while keeping LOS and firing from 500-700m.

It is terrible now. Lucky if I do 200 damage.

I also have my above Highlander, it goes 60kph with Speed Tweak, not amazingly fast, but it definitely is able to get into range, and I am not standing still behind a rock.

And it stinks as well.

You tell me.