Also, RnR only makes sense for lone wolves because otherwise the military organization/house/Clan/whatever would be paying the bills.
This actually make sense, It would be sweet if the faction gave you a per drop budget for the whole team you know and people would have to choose different mechs in order to meet drop budget. Kind of like a drop weight except with cbills. Actually that is a dumb idea, i have no idea how it would work lets just say factions have infinite cbills to spend.
What? There are plenty of successful games out there that balance the game through currency. Eve online and world of tanks comes to mind, I guess those devs failed miserably huh.
Eve Online has a real economy with actual scarcity. It's an MMO where you can actually lose your profits and ships when they blow up. Nobody with any clue about economics would think to compare that game's economy to this one.
World of Tanks has strong pay-to-win elements. It is probably the best example of why you don't want to balance through currency; it becomes more like playing the slots and less like playing a real game. So thanks for bringing that up and inadvertantly supporting my argument.
RnR doesn't fix mediums. The only reason mediums were used in RnR days was because the Atlas (with no ECM) and Awesome were they only Assault mechs. Jenners and Hunchbacks did very dirty things to those mechs back then. It had nothing to do with the fact an atlas cost more to run (actually due to the XL engine I used, my Jenner cost more to run than my Atlas).
You all keep suggesting ways to fix the issue by penalizing Assaults. That isn't going to fix anything. I have been saying this several times in this thread and no one is listening. You can't fix mediums by nerfing heavier mechs or making them harder to take. It won't fix the problem.
The only way to fix mediums is to make them do their jobs even better right now. This means lowering their profiles so they are just slightly bigger than lights. This will allow them to engage longer range targets and be able to survive a tad more. Then give them increased agility, near that of a light mech so they can engage in close range and avoid being hit.
Ideally I'd like to see a Medium mech who catches an Assault by themsevles will probably almost always win. Meaning they can simply stay out of the firing arc of the Assault until the assault is dead. And then have the agility and small profile at range to be able to duck out of cover shoot, and duck back before the assault can retaliate.
Will they become OP? To some, yes. But only if they are on their game around Assaults. If caught with their pants down, the assault will simply 2-3 shot them. Just as they do now. It will just be harder and that is the goal here.
A good medium pilot should be the most feared thing on the battlefield. Only then will it become the workhorse design. Heavies and Assaults should support the mediums, not the other way around.
The medium should be THE most effective platform ton per ton, and the most common mech on the field. Every other class should support or enhance the medium mechs on their team.
Really? Nobody complained? So PGI just pulled it because they wanted to?
The R&R system was the topic of 50% of the forum posts until they removed it. All the system did was create a massive grind. They might have been able to fix it, but like PGI does with most things they went scorched earth on it and didn't look back.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favor of Assault mechs being a rare and fearsome part of a team, but if you are balancing gameplay through currency then you have failed miserably as a developer.
a massive grind ? lol i got more money out of it back then as now lol
xcept that i didnt back then run an assault just a jenner with stock config
and had loads a fun even if i lost i got buckloads of cash so i was still happy.
But now iam pinned down to play ppc madness.
it balanced it quite well you wantet to
grind a chassie fine here ya go normal cbills
you wantet to pwn here ya go your superior weapons cost you half your earnings
you wantet to make cbills grab that eco version of your mech
or a light or medium mech with decent weapons
it createt alot of diversity without really nailing ppl down on a chassi or class
the assault lovers could still drive there assaults mm was actually more around
meds and lights and more fun than now.
ps:
The Forum was full of RandR topics because they didnt fix RandR thats why ppl cried not
cuz it was fubar.
It was actually funny that you could use a mech that was destroyed before in battle and all ammo
gone and you still could drop with 75% ammo and armor and internal health that was Fuckedup
but that could be changed too. So that you must repair and fully rearm your mich but sadly
they just removed it.
a massive grind ? lol i got more money out of it back then as now lol
xcept that i didnt back then run an assault just a jenner with stock config
and had loads a fun even if i lost i got buckloads of cash so i was still happy.
But now iam pinned down to play ppc madness.
it balanced it quite well you wantet to
grind a chassie fine here ya go normal cbills
you wantet to pwn here ya go your superior weapons cost you half your earnings
you wantet to make cbills grab that eco version of your mech
or a light or medium mech with decent weapons
it createt alot of diversity without really nailing ppl down on a chassi or class
the assault lovers could still drive there assaults mm was actually more around
meds and lights and more fun than now.
ps: The Forum was full of RandR topics because they didnt fix RandR thats why ppl cried not cuz it was fubar.
It was actually funny that you could use a mech that was destroyed before in battle and all ammo
gone and you still could drop with 75% ammo and armor and internal health that was Fuckedup
but that could be changed too. So that you must repair and fully rearm your mich but sadly
they just removed it.
So by gimping yourself and running stock you could make money, but to be competitive you had to lose money. By your own description, a guy who had more money would consistently outperform a guy who had less money.
I don't think you know what "balanced" means.
I bolded a sentence that gave me a migraine trying to decipher it. Maybe you could reword it so I know what you were trying to say.
Repair and rearm would be how I'd counter it. With forced repairs, and no freebies.
And how does that balance the poor ****** who has to replace his missiles at 30K CB per ton versus the ALL laser/PPC user? All you do is eliminate Ballistic based weapons altogether.
And it matters not how low you make the cost of Ballistic/Missile reloads, it is still more than their ZERO...
Can you give some examples of the games balancing through currency? Looks to me just a bunch of fps pay to win titles, which there is no balance through currency just people buying better weapons that the free to play people cant buy.
Precisely. MWO isn't any different. These games listed all use the similar system where what you can equip is based on a level up system, which you can bybass by paying real money, and real money weapons.
Quote
I have played tribes ascend and it was trash to me, only unique thing it had was the skiing. Else it just felt like UT2004 but updated graphics and a lame skiing mechanic which will only bring in the hardcore tribes fanbase which still play it i bet. I knew that game would fail from the beginning but i see potential in mwo. It can have so much depth to it.
Because like MWO, tribes ascend was grabbed up by a company that wanted to cash in on a name that has allot of leverage in the gaming community, only to drain everything that made it so popular in the first place to make it as much like Mechassault of duty as possible.
Stop me if you heard this before: Tribes ascend suffers from small, poorly designed maps, point and click auto win battles, massive hp gaps, and powerups.
And how does that balance the poor ****** who has to replace his missiles at 30K CB per ton versus the ALL laser/PPC user? All you do is eliminate Ballistic based weapons altogether.
And it matters not how low you make the cost of Ballistic/Missile reloads, it is still more than their ZERO...
Easy, he carries the cheaper merchandise. To be honest for cash I'd use an LRM-commando and back then I made around 1 mil cbills per game before premium. There were lots more bonuses back then which made up for your expenses. Now I run a commando and I'll be lucky to get around 150,000 per game with premium. It was only expensive for those minmax mechs like poptarts, lrm boats, anything with xl engines.
Also large lasers, LPLs, PPCs, etc. were actually much more expensive to repair. Mediums and smalls were dirt cheap. If it was destroyed, you paid half its price to fix it.
That means if you lost some PPCs, that'd be 300,000 you'd spend for each one destroyed. Meanwhile ammo is around half buying new so 10,000 or so per ton for the BIG GUNs is actually about 5,000 per ton. LRMs cost around 30,000 per ton but back then they did 2.0 damage with full splash, and were just as fast as they just became with the latest patch, and always went for the cockpit however to reload you only paid 15,000 or less. You could get away with two LRM-5s and still butcher on the battlefield with enough time.
The only way to truly lose money would be to run a boating assault mech. Even then you lost money if you both lost the match and were utterly butchered while using an XL engine and having multiple limbs destroyed. Which that usually only happened if you abandoned the team by rage quitting, as there was always someone making sure you suffered for leaving them short on players by farming.
This vid is after repair and rearm stopped. But it is the million cbill build. All it took was going out to the field, spotting someone first, and then firing LRMs. Everyone that fired LRMs to include myself, gave me 2,500 cbills. Every time they or myself fired. Say 5 people including myself fire LRMs on my target. That's 12,500 cbills for each time all 5 people launched LRMs. It PAID to be a scout.
From the description:
Spoiler
The LRM commando: perhaps one of my best scouting-support role designs thus far. With the incredible top speed of 139 kph, and between 90 and 100 kph when running backwards depending on conditions, this is an impressive economically sound design. It is cheap to start, though a little expensive to put in the proper engine. Beyond that, victory or defeat, repair and ammo costs are merely pocket change, and spotting bonuses more than make up for the lack of kills that may ensue.
Basic specs (It's been a while since I used this).
Commando 3-A variant (for 3 missile launching slots, otherwise use one of the two two-missile variants).
Engine: XL-210 (or 215 depending on variant)
Store missiles in legs to reduce chances of ammunition detonation destroying engine (note: for maximum ammo you can't store C.A.S.E. to protect the engine).
LRM-5's for maximum launcher at minimum weight. Also the lowest cost to repair/replace when killed. Two LRM-5's weigh less than 1 LRM-10.
Keep in mind, at the time this video was taken, my commando was much faster than the average Jenner. Now much more expensive builds sporting fancy armor and endo-steel structures can potentially overtake a commando. Good news is typically those builds cannot handle heat well, and typically sport streaks. Keep out of their range, and use stealth and discretion to minimize pursuit. Commandos turn better than Jenners, put them in tight-weaving areas and you'll have a chance.
Easy, he carries the cheaper merchandise. To be honest for cash I'd use an LRM-commando and back then I made around 1 mil cbills per game before premium. There were lots more bonuses back then which made up for your expenses. Now I run a commando and I'll be lucky to get around 150,000 per game with premium. It was only expensive for those minmax mechs like poptarts, lrm boats, anything with xl engines.
Also large lasers, LPLs, PPCs, etc. were actually much more expensive to repair. Mediums and smalls were dirt cheap. If it was destroyed, you paid half its price to fix it.
That means if you lost some PPCs, that'd be 300,000 you'd spend for each one destroyed. Meanwhile ammo is around half buying new so 10,000 or so per ton for the BIG GUNs is actually about 5,000 per ton. LRMs cost around 30,000 per ton but back then they did 2.0 damage with full splash, and were just as fast as they just became with the latest patch, and always went for the cockpit however to reload you only paid 15,000 or less. You could get away with two LRM-5s and still butcher on the battlefield with enough time.
The only way to truly lose money would be to run a boating assault mech. Even then you lost money if you both lost the match and were utterly butchered while using an XL engine and having multiple limbs destroyed. Which that usually only happened if you abandoned the team by rage quitting, as there was always someone making sure you suffered for leaving them short on players by farming.
This vid is after repair and rearm stopped. But it is the million cbill build. All it took was going out to the field, spotting someone first, and then firing LRMs. Everyone that fired LRMs to include myself, gave me 2,500 cbills. Every time they or myself fired. Say 5 people including myself fire LRMs on my target. That's 12,500 cbills for each time all 5 people launched LRMs. It PAID to be a scout.
From the description:
Spoiler
The LRM commando: perhaps one of my best scouting-support role designs thus far. With the incredible top speed of 139 kph, and between 90 and 100 kph when running backwards depending on conditions, this is an impressive economically sound design. It is cheap to start, though a little expensive to put in the proper engine. Beyond that, victory or defeat, repair and ammo costs are merely pocket change, and spotting bonuses more than make up for the lack of kills that may ensue.
Basic specs (It's been a while since I used this).
Commando 3-A variant (for 3 missile launching slots, otherwise use one of the two two-missile variants).
Engine: XL-210 (or 215 depending on variant)
Store missiles in legs to reduce chances of ammunition detonation destroying engine (note: for maximum ammo you can't store C.A.S.E. to protect the engine).
LRM-5's for maximum launcher at minimum weight. Also the lowest cost to repair/replace when killed. Two LRM-5's weigh less than 1 LRM-10.
Keep in mind, at the time this video was taken, my commando was much faster than the average Jenner. Now much more expensive builds sporting fancy armor and endo-steel structures can potentially overtake a commando. Good news is typically those builds cannot handle heat well, and typically sport streaks. Keep out of their range, and use stealth and discretion to minimize pursuit. Commandos turn better than Jenners, put them in tight-weaving areas and you'll have a chance.
Sadly "forcing" players to not play certain Mechs due to expense level is a very bad idea. You speak of the "old days" which are gone and gone for a reason. Even given a 75% discount folks abused the Dev kindness by not even paying the 25% pittance left.
What drove the old R&R system out of existence was new players who had limited funds early in their career driving damage mechs with incomplete weapons loads to save a few space bucks.
The problem is never the game. It is always the Players and the desire to WIN at all costs, Cheese be dammed. Those who claim to never use the Cheese have admirable qualities but when they join a group, and especially in CW, they too will be forced to use some form of cheese or be left out in the cold.
It is just the way of Competitive play. Conform to the effort to Win, or play something, or with someone else.
The problem is never the game. It is always the Players and the desire to WIN at all costs, Cheese be dammed. Those who claim to never use the Cheese have admirable qualities but when they join a group, and especially in CW, they too will be forced to use some form of cheese or be left out in the cold.
I have to disagree with this part right here. As a Lawman, I have never been left in the cold. I have been advised to change my load out some times but my kill/death and win/loss support me keeping things the way that works. If a team is that worried about competitive play and you are not, maybe you need to find a better fitting group.
In all of my last 50-100 matches, at least 50% of all mechs were assaults.
And now guess what will hapen when they introduce the Orion and the Victor....? More heavies and assaults on the field... and without repair costs and tonnage-limit this will go on.
As an answer to OP, because they can cram the most heavy weapons into them due to the sucky hard point system which allows boating even on mechs that shouldn't.
Now when's that moon going to allign with Mars, Neptune and Earth so that devs finally realize that?
I have to disagree with this part right here. As a Lawman, I have never been left in the cold. I have been advised to change my load out some times but my kill/death and win/loss support me keeping things the way that works. If a team is that worried about competitive play and you are not, maybe you need to find a better fitting group.
So your playing 8-man, in Competitive mode exclusively now then? MWO does not have a true Competitive game mode right now.
Sure some Teams will allow for singular builds etc, but those will not be the truly Competitive Teams. Not a bad thing for sure but when the chips are down, only the most efficient will make the grade. Unless, of course, you're already driving the PPC + Gauss Popper?
Group think will rear its ugly head as it always does. Why do you think 8-man is a ghost town. Group think is why.
Sadly "forcing" players to not play certain Mechs due to expense level is a very bad idea. You speak of the "old days" which are gone and gone for a reason. Even given a 75% discount folks abused the Dev kindness by not even paying the 25% pittance left.
What drove the old R&R system out of existence was new players who had limited funds early in their career driving damage mechs with incomplete weapons loads to save a few space bucks.
The problem is never the game. It is always the Players and the desire to WIN at all costs, Cheese be dammed. Those who claim to never use the Cheese have admirable qualities but when they join a group, and especially in CW, they too will be forced to use some form of cheese or be left out in the cold.
It is just the way of Competitive play. Conform to the effort to Win, or play something, or with someone else.
Actually the issue was frequent repair-free farming for minimum amounts of cbills. Make the farming aspect completely pointless with the forced repair and rearm, and the farming aspect is completely gone. Also in lore lights and mediums were the way most things went due to how expensive heavier things were. If you can play assaults well in non-boating builds it was easy to make in excess of 700,000 cbills with a threatening repair bill of over 200,000 minimum should you perish. If you boated and super-upgraded everything but perished you'd come out of the match losing money. This made it the "Thinking Person's Shooter" it was advertised to be; teamwork, coordination, tactics, communication, everything mattered. Nothing rode on the 'poptart' to win the match for everyone.
Heck, if you ran a boating build such as 4 ER PPCs, well you'd have to win or you'd break the bank. Typically you didn't win as a boater. If you were seen boating, team members ACTUALLY offered to protect you as you were both taking a HUGE risk to help the team, and because if they helped you, they also helped themselves.
There's also a reason most trial builds have between 1 and 2 tons of ammo for each weapon. In lore, that kept them cheap and affordable. Otherwise if they were beefed up and lost, it'd be a huge blow to the military budget.
Right now we have missions with 7 assaults and 1 light with the ever so great weight matching of the new ELO substituting half of those assaults with heavies, 2 lights and 2 mediums.
In what way is that fair?
Matches went very different back then, and quite friendly. Surrenders were accepted against impossible odds. Captures paid enough that no one complained when it happened. In fact they paid more than total annihilation. One or two people deliberately stayed back or were assigned to defend bases. After all, base defense was ideal for newer players as damages were light, it taught aiming, and gave them a clear cut goal. Tactics were extremely important. All in all MWO was a better game during repair and rearm.
A min/max build at the time was defined as having a full array of weapons with 2 to 3 tons of ammo per weapon, much like a trial build. Minimum cost, maximum output. Try a blackjack. That was a fairly typical rig with AC/5s instead.
This is me in an AC/2, AC/5, 4 medium laser, SRM-6, LRM-10 Atlas with Basics only and a standard 300 engine. I come out with 6 kills. I carry 1 to 2 tons of ammunition per weapon. Double-heatsinks but of course. Welcome to repair and rearm's min/max build. Btw, I was 3 tons short in armor 90 tons of equipment, just for the lols. Recorded by Lordred for Exterior view goodness. This is against multiple current-day cheesebuilds with the exception of a multi-PPC rig and/or LRM boat, with a failing team and a commando following me more as a camera than a fighter, so we even had the team disadvantage.
It doesn't take much to win.
This was another economy friendly min/max build when the stalkers came out. Two SRM-2s, 2 LPLs only. This was when LPLs did the heat of modern day ER PPCs, and quite clearly I had to get within range. This happens to be my very first build, NO BASICS. Multiple Atlases as enemies. Oh, and don't forget my first Stalker was the "inferior" 3H.
Upcoming is a fully in-game training system with a free cash dump to get your first mech, thereby bypassing the whole trial system. It's supposed to teach you combat, even show you third person during training so you know what it means when they say you are a "walking tank with a turreted-torso." It's supposed to walk you through throttle decay on and off, armlock on and off, targeting, everything people had to learn the hard way the old way.
The system works just fine in world of tanks (though I hate that game and its ridiculous learning curve). You can't run if you don't repair the tank and rearm it. Though you could bring another tank just fine. I don't see why it can't work here if implemented in such a way it can't be exploited.
While I still enjoy the game, I'm hating to see it turn into Assault Mechwarrior Online. I just don't know how you can get around it though. Maybe increase the number of modules available for Lights and Mediums? Increase the amount of income and XP that Lights and Mediums earn per game? Allow all Light and Medium mechs to carry ECM? I don't know if anything can really be viewed as "fair" when it comes to this type of favoritism.
I think if they create more modes that favor Lights and Mediums. Something like a Base Cap game that gives you extra cbills, maybe more folks that are trying to grind cbills will start playing more LIghts and Mediums.
Or maybe have the time limits reduced or number of resources to capture reduced. This will start requiring more overall team speed.
I think we need some "outside the box" type of thinking for this one. I don't believe weight limits will help. A Battle Value system might, but even that would require some extensive tweaking.
Worst case scenario, offer free repairs when the mechwarrior's cash goes negative or remedial training that'll pay out a sum that will push the player back up to a positive number when performing poorly but clearly trying, in order to keep them on their feet. Though except in terrible connections, I have yet to see anyone perform that badly.
The medium should be THE most effective platform ton per ton, and the most common mech on the field. Every other class should support or enhance the medium mechs on their team.
Have to disagree with this. In the context of the game, the heavy is actually the most balanced class in terms of speed, firepower, and survivability. Perhaps in canon mediums were most common due to the scarcity of mechs and such, but this isn't canon and MWO doesn't play by TT rules. In the context of most warfare over time, the heavier front line units were always supported by the lighter ones, not the other way around. That said, we really do need tonnage and weight class restrictions per drop.
The medium should be THE most effective platform ton per ton, and the most common mech on the field. Every other class should support or enhance the medium mechs on their team.
I don't see this Tender. Most Mediums are to light to be Well armored for a rue brawl, to heavy to be a great scout, They are by definition the middle of the road size. I am not insulting the Mediums I have a love for the Treb-K, Hunch-SP4, Just about every Centurion, but being Medium they excel at nothing but support just about everything.
I think part of the problem lies in how many people play mediums. They want to brawl it up toe to toe with heavies and assaults without moving that much. I've seen so many cases recently where a Hunchback or a Blackjack wants to stand in front of my Ultra loaded Ilya or AC20 Jager and think they are going to win a straight up weapons match and instead catch ultra rounds to the chest till they pop. No one torso twists or uses cover in a medium, but instead wants to walk up to an Ilya and try to out DPS it. At the core of it though with mechs costing real money and time to get, you can't dictate to people what class they should run. If the majority wants to run heavies and assaults they will. Canon is not the be all end all.
You have a very rose-tinted view of how things went in Closed Beta. If you think there would be "friendly surrenders" now to protect your opponents' expensive rides you are smoking something.
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FupDup, on 03 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:
