62 replies to this topic

[BlackIronTarkus]

Introduction - Myself

Hello, first of all let me introduce myself. My name is Matt I have been playing video games for 19 years now and going strong. I own more than 160 games and I have very big interrest in video game development since I started playing.

My very first game was actually mechwarrior on MS-DOS. Way too complicated for my age at that time but still, its the first video game I ever played which I find quite funny considering Im here on this forum right now.

I still consider myself a hardcore player even though I now have a familly. I have a wonderful 11 month daughter and many little pets to take care off. Im a land surveyor working on construction sites mostly building bridges and roads. My awesome wife is a doctor.

Im also a gun owner so I have decent knowledge of firearms.

Disclaimer - A new player report.


Now that you know me a little better I come here to express what I believe are points that need to be worked on, to explain what I think are mistakes being made and to futher improve this video game which I find very enjoyable so far but have big blatant flaws.

Obviously Im quite new and of course my knownledge of the background of this game is limited since I didn't follow its development since the start. So bare with me if I make mistakes or if solutions are already being developed for problems Im about to discuss.

First point; The economy.

First of all let examinate the word microtransaction.

Wiktionary

• microtransaction(Noun)
  A transaction for a very small amount of money (a micropayment).

MICROtransaction

mi·cro

Adjective

• Extremely small.
  
• Small-scale.

Im sorry but tirthy dollars for a single mechwarrior is pretty expensive taking in consideration of what you can have for that amount today. For that price you can buy FULL games, which mean you paid once and you get the entire content for that price. Not only that, but with platforms like steam you can get six full games for that price. Buy two expensive mechwarriors and thats a pre-order triple A games that you have with everything unlocked and even bonuses. Oh, dont worry some people will buy them anyway, I did, and I regret it. This could be a reason why I could leave this game in a relatively close future and it means that other people like me will think the same thus hurting your sales.

Let me point you to an article explaining why respecting the player wallet is a better marketing strategy than these disastrous prices.

http://www.gamasutra...yers_wallet.php

This brings me to my second point;

Never, ever pay to win. (dead horse, please do not debate about this topic, agree or disagree)

Right now, some players like me are indeed paying to win. Now I didn't buy that pretty baby to win explicitly, I bought it simply because it was the fastest of the assault class and I liked its weapons placements.

No matter how deep you plant your head in the ground, no matter what excuse you tell me to justify that buying such or such mech is not pay to win is simply being dishonest or ignorant.

Ask yourself this question; Can a non-paying custumer have the exact same loadout and statistiques than a player like me who bought a pretty baby? If the answer is no, then it is pay to win.

Dont fool yourself, videos games are math, if I can add numbers that you cannot make without paying then it is pay to win. Buying a mechwarrior with statistic that can't be matched by any other free mechwarrior is pay to win. It have nothing to do with you or your playstyle, its cold hard numbers talking.

Let me point you to a educative video better explaining why pay to win is terrible for any games.



Still dont believe me? See this;




There is no denying, one is strickly better than the other while still being inaccessible to free player. It doesnt matter if nobody use it, what matters are the cold hard numbers. This is a fact, this is pay to win. If two player use face each other when one of them use the paid version and the other one the free version, with the exact same loadout and mechwarrior, the one with the paid version will win by sheer number. I know that doesnt happen ingame, thats not the point.

Let me make my point more comprehensive and with the same occasion end this section with this quote;

Quote

Pay-to-Win

When you sell game advantage via any of the above methods, you break the game intentionally. I would go so far as to say your product is no longer a game, but just an entertainment product at that point -- as described in the aforementioned Game Monetization Defined paper. Further, when you make the game highly competitive between players you create what is in reality an ante game, as described in my How 'Pay to Win' Works paper.

An ante game is one where you can win just by raising the ante to the point where your competitors cannot match you. Skill and effort become irrelevant. Most Facebook ante games (currently all mid-core and Asian browser games) have no cap at all.

From;
http://www.gamasutra...sign.php?page=3

Effectively splitting the community in half.

So, I heard you want to add a 3rd person view despite many of your current players being strongly in disagreement with you to expend your player base. Great idea, but it wont work, at all. Instead you will further destroy the small community you currently have.

On one side you will alienate your current player base and on the other side a minority of players will join because of this change. Im sorry but a player that doesn't like the current gameplay of mechwarrior online at this time wont be magically start to like it because the camera view is exterior to his 'mech.

Not only that, but your already small community will be splitted in half. Those who want to play in third person view and those that dont want to play in third person view. The community will even be smaller and effectively destroy what you already achieved.

Worst of all you are working against your already fragile economy by making cockpits items null and void because those who will play in third person view wont even see them. A whole side of your economy to the trash, why would anyone buy a cockpit item if he spend his time in third person view? Answer me this.

To add insults to the very deep injury, third person view bring its lots of problems. With third person you can see around corners and above obstacles while your mechwarrior is behind cover. It is a pretty big problem especially that your game is based around competition and multiplayer. You simply cannot have both view in a competive video game. Its one or the other.

Anyway, this is quite possibly the worst design decision you guys decided to make. What you are pulling right now with that 3rd person view is what I like to call a ''star wars galaxies fiasco''.

See this article for enlightment;
http://www.escapistm...-Crying-Freema

Game balance

Alright, my daughter is awake and Im getting tired of working on this report, so let me conclude it relatively quickly with some videos and one liners. Enjoy!

We all know PPCs are overpowered and machines guns are underpowered. Long range weaponry is too effective close range while close range weaponry is completly ineffective long range. LRM you have tools to deal against them with AMS and ECM. PPC and gauss you have absolutly nothing to counter those, even at close range. So let me ask you this question, or perhaps you should ask yourself this question when you balance weapons; is it fun to be on the receiving end of PPCs?



What is perfect imbalance?



The future of 1984 is not the same as the future of 2013

I understand it is important to stay true to an IP, but technologie imagined in 1984 is far from the technologie we achieved and imagined in 2013. Do you think the last 3 batmans would have been as good as they are right now if the realisator didn't adapt it to 2000+ standart? It sure would have been pretty good comedies with all the ''POW'' ''CRONK'' ''BAM''.



See how it is ridiculus? You can't take old content and simply copy and paste it in our years and call it a day. It simply doesn't work. I suggest you think about that and give us some advanced technologie.

like;


or letting me move my arms to a decent firing position;


Conclusion

Thank you for reading this far, I could go on about matchmaking but Im seriously tired and I have familly duties to attend to. So please, let me know what you think, what you agree and disagree with, but dont forget that what we both want is for mechwarrior to be a healthy and succesful game.

See you on the battlefield!

TLDR: This is a forum, learn to read or leave.

Edited by BlackIronTarkus, 03 June 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[RiceyFighter]

The game is definately NOT pay to win. The hero mechs are completely balanced against their free counter parts. Also consumable modules have GXP and C-Bill upgrade to make them the same as their MC counterparts.

You are completely right about microtransactions though. They are dam too expensive except mechbays.

Edited by RiceyFighter, 02 June 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I constantly waffle on whether this is a p2w or f2p game because PGI really skates the edge of decency.

My conclusion so far, the only p2w thing is owning your own vent server and having friends.

Weapon/damage issues, are netcode issues sadly.

Edited by lockwoodx, 02 June 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[BlackIronTarkus]

RiceyFighter, on 02 June 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

The game is definately NOT pay to win. The hero mechs are completely balanced against their free counter parts. Also consumable modules have GXP and C-Bill upgrade to make them the same as their C-Bill counterparts.

No, read my post again. Can you make a free mech with the exact same stats, loadout and engine no matter what combination it is as the pretty baby for exemple? The answer is no, so there is an advantage no matter how you turn it around.

[Appogee]

There are upgraded consumables - cool shot 18, priority air strike, priority arty strike, advanced UAV - which can ONLY be bought with real money. So you are right on this point, these are definitely pay to win in that only paying players can access their advantages.

Hero Mechs... no. These are ''pay to avoid grind''. They are different to the free to play Mechs, but they aren't actually better. I use them for the additional C-Bills only. I actually prefer other Mechs when I'm not grinding for CBills.

Edited by Appogee, 02 June 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[RiceyFighter]

BlackIronTarkus, on 02 June 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

No, read my post again. Can you make a free mech with the exact same stats, loadout and engine no matter what combination it is as the pretty baby for exemple? The answer is no, so there is an advantage no matter how you turn it around.

Doesn't matter even if the mech have a different combination or stats, they are still balanced with in the game. The hero mechs do not provide any better combat advantage over their free counter parts. The mechs are different but they are BALANCED!

Appogee, on 02 June 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

There are upgraded consumables - cool shot 18, priority air strike, priority arty strike, advanced UAV - which can ONLY be bought with real money. So he is right on this point, these are definitely pay to win in that only paying players can access their advantages.

Hero Mechs... no. These are ''pay to avoid grind''.

There are upgrades to consumable modules to make the C-Bill consumable the same as their MC counterparts. The MC consumables are only pay for convience.

[RG Notch]

Why reason with the P2W zombies? If it's not a ******* hat it's P2W. But no people will try to use logic, which they don't subscribe to. HATS! That is all!

[Rawyn]

BlackIronTarkus, on 02 June 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

No, read my post again. Can you make a free mech with the exact same stats, loadout and engine no matter what combination it is as the pretty baby for exemple? The answer is no, so there is an advantage no matter how you turn it around.

No you can't. But still those Mechs don't deal increased damage, have more armor or anything else that will make your
life on the battlefield easier in any way. The X-5 for example has 2 Missile hardpoints, but sacrifices 2 Energy slots for that.
So it's more of a personal preference thing and not pay2win.

I agree with you on the micro transaction thing, but on the other hand no one is forcing you to buy the expensive stuff. I'm pretty sure that the prices will be adjusted if the figures give any reason to do so.

And if you don't think the technology hasn't been re-imagined to match the current century, you should check the original Mech designs on sarna.net ;-)

[Appogee]

RiceyFighter, on 02 June 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

There are upgrades to consumable modules to make the C-Bill consumable the same as their MC counterparts. The MC consumables are only pay for convience.

I don't understand. Explain to me how I can get the equivalent benefit to a Cool Shot 18 without having to pay MC...?

(For the record, I don't use Cool Shots at all because it seems a kind of cheat to me, but anyway, please illustrate your point using Cool Shot as the example.)

[AlexEss]

Hi OP

As you have a very specific veiw on what is P2W i will not argue that point on Hero mechs. I feel they are ok as they do not add power per se, you feel they are not ok because they are "special". No point in trying to go back and forth on that.

But you did miss the whole point of the upgradeable consumables and outside of the mechs this game offer a wide range of micro transactions

[Tickdoff Tank]

Appogee, on 02 June 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I don't understand. Explain to me how I can get the equivalent benefit to a Cool Shot 18 without having to pay MC...?

(For the record, I don't use Cool Shots at all because it seems a kind of cheat to me, but anyway, please illustrate your point using Cool Shot as the example.)

Save up your GXP. Then use the GXP to purchase the "buffs" to coolshot. Once you have spent the GXP (which is earned by in-game activity) then your coolshot 9x9 is EXACTLY the same as coolshot 18.

Using MC to purchase coolshot 18, or to convert mech XP to GXP is a MUCH faster way to get the extra toys, but you can still equal the effectiveness without ever spending a single cent of real money. That is why an above poster said that it is "Pay for Convenience" and not P2W.

That said, there are several legitimate complaints about the system and it's effect on the game, but calling it a Pay To Win system is flawed. IMO at least.

Edit: http://mwomercs.com/...-drawing-board/ Read all of this.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 02 June 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[thepartisan]

This is a fail post in regards to pay-to-win. Where is the pay-to win you speak of so much? Because so far I know most people complain about how useless some of the 'pay-to-win mechs' are? And then onwards to the consumables. You can use MC on these for convenience of not grinding the exp to unlock the upgrades in the pilot trees. So you can use MC to buy Coolshot 18 (whatever its number is) or you could use patience and get the upgrade in the pilot tree which nabs you that Coolshot 18 for C-Bills.

Pay-2-win then? No. Just stuff that makes the everyday life of the lazy mechwarrior ,who wipes his nose with cash, easy.

Edited for grammar

Edited by thepartisan, 02 June 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Appogee]

Tickdoff Tank, on 02 June 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Save up your GXP. Then use the GXP to purchase the "buffs" to coolshot. Once you have spent the GXP (which is earned by in-game activity) then your coolshot 9x9 is EXACTLY the same as coolshot 18.

I did not know that! Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

I feel better about the game now that I know it hasn't crossed that pay-to-win line as I thought it had.

Edited by Appogee, 02 June 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Appogee, on 02 June 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

I did not know that! Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

I feel better about the game now that I know it hasn't crossed that pay-to-win line as I thought it had.

You should have seen the uproar when the initial Consumable system was proposed. That one really WAS P2W. There was at least 1 thing that could only be purchased with real cash and it was clearly better than the other options. The forums (rightfully) went ballistic. Which forced/encouraged/backhanded-sense-into PGI to change it before it went live.

[Appogee]

Tickdoff Tank, on 02 June 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

The forums (rightfully) went ballistic. Which forced/encouraged/backhanded-sense-into PGI to change it before it went live.

Yikes. But good on PGI for listening and not going down that path to P2W.

I will reward them with more MC for as long as they keep faith with this important principle.

[Squid von Torgar]

A good post OP, some thought out and well presented arguments there. Better than the usual OMFG THIS SUX SO FIX IT FFS OMG! posts.

I've been playing this game for around a year now. I can honestly say that it isn't P2W. That actually is one of the few things that PGI have gotten right. Ill explain why I think that.

Traditional bite you on the arse P2W is as you point out selling a winning advantage to a player that isn't available to non paying players.

As you highlight, consumables at thier top level offer this. If you pay real money you can access the top tier. The thing is though that whilst they do do this the level of advantage to be gained from actually buying them (remember once you use it you have to buy it again) is so small that only the most spend happy cash cow is going to do this. I've probably spent in the region of $200 on this game, but even I wouldn't bother wasting money on the consumables. They just aren't worth it. On the flip side, if someone does want to buy them and use them, then hey, thats fine. I do use the CB F2P consumables but thats it.

Same goes with the hero mechs. Why should anyone buy a hero mech? Well I guess a couple of reasons are that you get a unique colour scheme and hardpoint layout. Again having an extra missile hardpoint or ballistic hardpoint doesn't mean that you can achieve a better build than a non paying player. It merely offers you more choice. Paying for choice is fair enough, provided that choice doesn't afford you a advantage. Its merely a preference and in my experience no hero mech is better than any of the standard chassis. The real reason though that you should buy a hero mech is the CB bonus. That effectively reduces the grind by 30% Again you are paying for convinence, or rather paying to spend less time playing to get other unlocks. Fine by me, thats why I bought a founders package.

Were you are spot on though it about weapon balance. PGI really need to go back to the drawing board and rethink the game balance. There is nothing fun about getting cored by a 6 PPC stalker, there is no counter to it apart from hoping you don't move into its sights (which in turn encourages camping and makes things more boring and more snipery).

The problem though isn't the weapons themselves. Whether a PPC has a cool down of 3 or 4 seconds, or generates 10 or 11 heat wont change a thing. Its the ability to mount that many weapons in the first place. Other Mechwarrior games have forbidden players from doing this. The crime takes place in the mech lab and not the battlefield. PGI need to realise this otherwise we are very much screwed. Currently PGI try to treat the symptom of the disease, not the cause, the accomplishes nothing.

I also wish they could be more innovative, your arm idea is a great one, not other Mech Game has had that and if done well would be awesome. At the moment MWO doesnt feel to me how a latest gen sim of Mechs should be. Its too much like a generic FPS and has more in common with COD than Mechwarrior. That said you shouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes the Battletech universe can seem as laughable as 60s batman when put in todays context, but hey its all just fluff anyway, and many including myself have a lost of nostaliga for the unique take on things it provides. The game should ahere to it. But thats not to say you can be more creative. In fact I think a major problem is that MWO doesnt adhere to it enough. Take heat for example. In the orginal game you got a series of progressive and varied penalties for running hot.

These ranged from decreasing your movement, and making it harder to shoot, up to internal ammo explosions and making the pilot black out. In MWO we have 2. If you don't override you just shut down, if you do you take damage. Most people have learnt how to minimise these effects, because the implementation is linear and simple. If we had a heat scale more like the original then high alpha, high heat builds would not only be more balanced, but more fun to play and play against. Dispite repeated calls for PGI to do this nothing changes...

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 02 June 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Squid von Torgar, on 02 June 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

A very intelligent and constructive post.

Thanks for that Squid, I agree with you and others to an extent on pay to win part. But I disagree that heroes mech are not pay to win despite the some good arguments.

Lets imagine a scenario to better demonstrate how a hero mech can be pay to win. Lets say a new mech is released, it have its variants but it cannot wield any kind of balistic weapons. Now there is that hero mech which can mount ballistic weapons. PGI release a patch and for some reason ballistic are now flavor of the month and borderline overpowered. The majority of player are using ballistic weapon since that change. So, because one type of weapon is superior to other types this particular mech become greatly superior to its free variants. If you pit a so called balanced variant with only energy hardpoint against that one, the hero mech will automatically win by sheer power if the two players are of the same skill level.

This is already happenning right now, it doesnt matter what weapon type or combination it is, it is mathematicaly superior and thus being pay to win.

Its sad because the solution is very simple, simply put a CB price on these mechs. It doesnt matter if they cost 50,000,000 cb... as long as its possible for free player to acquire them it will then be balanced.

That being said I really would love to hear more about the other points, especialy the third person topic. Its obvious our understanding of pay to win is different, and thats fine. The simple fact that many people raise that topic mean that if it is not pay to win it is too close to being it for people like me to make the difference and can thus hurt the game, community included.

[Curccu]

BlackIronTarkus, on 02 June 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

No, read my post again. Can you make a free mech with the exact same stats, loadout and engine no matter what combination it is as the pretty baby for exemple? The answer is no, so there is an advantage no matter how you turn it around.

You will be in disadvantage always if you play crappy mech like Pretty Baby.

[Squid von Torgar]

I think we have to agree to disagree. Yes potentially a hero mech could in a certain circumstance have an advantage over a standard mech, but again if we have balance where all weapon types have advantages and disadvantages and there is no clear winner you should avoid that too. Allowing F2P players to get hero mechs albeit at extraordinary CB costs would put the naysayers arguments to bed, but again I think that the main advantage that HM give is that you get a CB bonus from them. I think its right and makes commercial sense that you have to pay for that. Perhaps you could offer a variant that would be accessible to a F2P that doesn't have that?

Don't get me started on 3rd person view, nobody wants it, it wouldn't do what pgi hope it would do and its a total waste of time and given the community reaction to it, PGI are insane for going ahead with it.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Squid von Torgar, on 02 June 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Don't get me started on 3rd person view, nobody wants it, it wouldn't do what pgi hope it would do and its a total waste of time and given the community reaction to it, PGI are insane for going ahead with it.

I couldn't agree more. They are effectively pulling a ''star wars galaxies fiasco'', its so obvious its not even funny.

For the rest I highly encourage people to watch the videos I posted minus the batman one and read the articles. If you dont understand them and care about video game development dig them then watch them again. There is a lot to be learned.