38 replies to this topic

[BillyM]

I don't care about the possible heat cap reworking.

I don't care about "we should buff LRM to combat"

I don't care about any of that crap that takes months and months to code/fix.

I WANT PPC's TO RUN 1 HEAT HOTTER RIGHT FREAKIN NOW!

...not suggesting that is the end of weapon balance, but it'll atleast help us in the right direction.

--billyM (cata1x 4PPC pilot, ex-hbk4sp pilot)

Edited by BillyM, 02 June 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Where's the option for +2 heat?

[LordBraxton]

I too pilot my phracts with 4PPCs

my 1X runs 86.6kph

my 3D runs 76.4 with poptart jump jets

oh and 4PPC highlanders on occasion

my centurions\trebuchets\dragons\awesomes\catapults are all in mothballs

[BillyM]

+2 heat is a PGI-esque change, (25% BIG AND ALL AT ONCE!)

...once the +1 heat goes in, if they are still over-used, then we talk about it next patch...

That's what I'm getting at, the forum voice is split by all these people wanting the final-end-game balance of PPC's.
"I want heat scale adjusted!" "Penalties to fix boating!" "It's convergence, that's it!" "Re code the whole game!"

IT DOESN'T EXIST, small weapon balances will always be needed based on the current tendencies, stop focusing on big changes.

...lets stand behind a simple first-step and see it made, +1 HEAT TO PPC NOW!

--billyM

[A banana in the tailpipe]

+2 heat makes the statement a change needed to be made. +1 heat seems like a bone thrown to "vocal" community.

I'd rather PGI show some backbone.

Edited by lockwoodx, 02 June 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[zorak ramone]

This is a terrible idea.

Adding heat to the PPCs will hurt everyone EXCEPT for the jumpsnipers and stalker ridge-snipers. Jump snipers just drop to the ground and shut down/cool off when they overheat. Stalkers don't have to expose much of themselves in order to fire, so they don't have far to back down before shutting down/cooling off.

This will hurt mechs that try to use PPCs as part of balanced/mixed range configs, or any other mech (Atlas/Awesome) aside from highlanders, stalkers, and CTF-3Ds that try to snipe.

In short this change would do nothing to change the current GR/PPC dominated meta, other than actually making it worse by further limiting the usefulness of non top-tier mechs.

[MustrumRidcully]

THe PPC was not used at 9 heat?

What changed?

- Heat
- HSR
- Nerf of LRMs and SRMs
- First Jump-Jet Assault introduced

Why wasn't the PPC used at 9 heat?

Without HSR it was unreliable. But all weapons were unreliable. But most other weapons were at least somewhat "heat manageable". Sure, mabe you missed half of the time purely because of HSR, but at least you didn't overheat after 3 salvoes with other weapons. So it was okay for the other weapon, but for an unreliable weapon, the PPC was just way too hot.

Now, you still overheat after 3 salvos with a bunch of PPCs. The 1 point heat change doesn't really change anything in that regard.
What change is that now 3 salvos might actually accurately hit now.

BUt still nothing has changed if you wanted to sustain firing PPCs - they are still too hot for that. Raising the heat might - help against those alphas-strikers. Or maybe it doesn't. Increasing the heat by 1 or 2 points will not really change that you overheat after 3 salvoes. But it will affect sustainable damage output.

You'd help the situation more if we didn't have convergence, or if you raised heat dissipation and lowered heat capacity. MAybe you could even raise the heat per shot of the PPC again. Heat Cap of 15 + 1/2 #SHS or 15+1 #DHS would already force someone with 20 DHS to not fire more than 3 PPCs at the current heat level. But he'd need 10 DHS per PPC to compensate for the heat of a single PPC for sustained fire. Double the dissipation, and it goes down to 5 DHS or 10 SHS - which is about what the table top suggested for standard PPCs... But despite needing less sinks to maxmize sustainable DPS, alpha strikes are far more limited, you need a lot more DHS to compensate the Alpha heat of multiple PPCs.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 02 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Livewyr]

lockwoodx, on 02 June 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Where's the option for +2 heat?

Voted no, for this reason.

BillyM, on 02 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

+2 heat is a PGI-esque change, (25% BIG AND ALL AT ONCE!)

Except it's not PGI-esque.. it would be reverting back (and admitting a mistake.)

[A banana in the tailpipe]

zorak ramone, on 02 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is a terrible idea.

Adding heat to the PPCs will hurt everyone EXCEPT for the jumpsnipers and stalker ridge-snipers. Jump snipers just drop to the ground and shut down/cool off when they overheat. Stalkers don't have to expose much of themselves in order to fire, so they don't have far to back down before shutting down/cooling off.

This will hurt mechs that try to use PPCs as part of balanced/mixed range configs, or any other mech (Atlas/Awesome) aside from highlanders, stalkers, and CTF-3Ds that try to snipe.

In short this change would do nothing to change the current GR/PPC dominated meta, other than actually making it worse by further limiting the usefulness of non top-tier mechs.

Mechs shutting down more often is NEVER a bad thing because it keeps boaters in check and even average joe schmo can take a medium behind the lines to create Havok.

The real issue here is everyone feels entitled to "see combat" every time they jump without putting the effort to get into the enemy's back ranks. PGI not adding massive splash damage to PPCs so they blow the legs off their owner when they try to alpha a light mech circling them is the real issue IMO.

Edited by lockwoodx, 02 June 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[BillyM]

Thanks for all the "no" votes because you want a bigger change. ...that'll really help when the dev's glance over this thread...

--billyM

[Soy]

[Livewyr]

BillyM, on 02 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Thanks for all the "no" votes because you want a bigger change. ...that'll really help when the dev's glance over this thread...

--billyM

Thanks for being very PGI and offering one possible solution and not considering other options, even in the face of audience demand.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

BillyM, on 02 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

...that'll really help when the dev's glance over this thread...

--billyM

Do you also think a genie will come out when you rub a beer bottle?

Edited by lockwoodx, 02 June 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[BillyM]

zorak ramone, on 02 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is a terrible idea.

Adding heat to the PPCs will hurt everyone EXCEPT for the jumpsnipers and stalker ridge-snipers. Jump snipers just drop to the ground and shut down/cool off when they overheat. Stalkers don't have to expose much of themselves in order to fire, so they don't have far to back down before shutting down/cooling off.

This will hurt mechs that try to use PPCs as part of balanced/mixed range configs, or any other mech (Atlas/Awesome) aside from highlanders, stalkers, and CTF-3Ds that try to snipe.

In short this change would do nothing to change the current GR/PPC dominated meta, other than actually making it worse by further limiting the usefulness of non top-tier mechs.

THIS IS NOT A JJ NERF THREAD! They will be nerfed in their own way...

This is just a simple suggestion that they could include in Tuesdays' patch quickly and easily.

Oh no, it'll hurt my 1x, the poor little non-OP guy...





--billyM

[Barghest Whelp]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 June 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

THe PPC was not used at 9 heat?

What changed?

- Heat
- HSR
- Nerf of LRMs and SRMs
- First Jump-Jet Assault introduced

Why wasn't the PPC used at 9 heat?

Without HSR it was unreliable. But all weapons were unreliable. But most other weapons were at least somewhat "heat manageable". Sure, mabe you missed half of the time purely because of HSR, but at least you didn't overheat after 3 salvoes with other weapons. So it was okay for the other weapon, but for an unreliable weapon, the PPC was just way too hot.

Now, you still overheat after 3 salvos with a bunch of PPCs. The 1 point heat change doesn't really change anything in that regard.
What change is that now 3 salvos might actually accurately hit now.

BUt still nothing has changed if you wanted to sustain firing PPCs - they are still too hot for that. Raising the heat might - help against those alphas-strikers. Or maybe it doesn't. Increasing the heat by 1 or 2 points will not really change that you overheat after 3 salvoes. But it will affect sustainable damage output.

You'd help the situation more if we didn't have convergence, or if you raised heat dissipation and lowered heat capacity. MAybe you could even raise the heat per shot of the PPC again. Heat Cap of 15 + 1/2 #SHS or 15+1 #DHS would already force someone with 20 DHS to not fire more than 3 PPCs at the current heat level. But he'd need 10 DHS per PPC to compensate for the heat of a single PPC for sustained fire. Double the dissipation, and it goes down to 5 DHS or 10 SHS - which is about what the table top suggested for standard PPCs... But despite needing less sinks to maxmize sustainable DPS, alpha strikes are far more limited, you need a lot more DHS to compensate the Alpha heat of multiple PPCs.

That's a very interesting analysis of what happened to the PPC. But I think you're leaving out the most important variable: projectile speed.

I used PPC's long before the heat reduction, and they had a much slower projectile speed (this was long before HSR). This made it very difficult to hit anything with them at longer ranges. Not impossible, but it did require a bit of skill and in some cases a bit of luck. This was before the netcode fix as well mind you.

But now the PPC has the fastest projectile speed of all weapon systems. Add netcode fix and HSR to that mix, and you have the best direct fire long range weapon in the game. Adding a tiny bit of heat wouldn't hurt it much tbh.

[SgtFlex]

SHUT UP!

[BillyM]

It's OK, I run PPC boats too...

[Livewyr]

zorak ramone, on 02 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is a terrible idea.

Adding heat to the PPCs will hurt everyone EXCEPT for the jumpsnipers and stalker ridge-snipers. Jump snipers just drop to the ground and shut down/cool off when they overheat. Stalkers don't have to expose much of themselves in order to fire, so they don't have far to back down before shutting down/cooling off.

This will hurt mechs that try to use PPCs as part of balanced/mixed range configs, or any other mech (Atlas/Awesome) aside from highlanders, stalkers, and CTF-3Ds that try to snipe.

In short this change would do nothing to change the current GR/PPC dominated meta, other than actually making it worse by further limiting the usefulness of non top-tier mechs.

That is why it must be in tandem with giving heat penalties.. so spiking up to 75% heat on your first salvo is a VERY BAD IDEA.

[blinkin]

lockwoodx, on 02 June 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Where's the option for +2 heat?

generally not a table top purist, but i think the PPC/ERPPC would be fine at the 10/15 values especially since HSR was added. although i would like to also see their ECM effects expanded: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Lerajie]

Seriously, I know comparing table top is taboo, but with PPC's it worked. PPC's aren't efficient, they made more heat for a minimum damage range for a reason there. Worse heat per range was the trade off from large lasers.

Regarding MWO, I ran PPC's before the heat reduction, they were fine, at this stage in the game adding heat/and/ recycle time would fix the idiocy that the game has fallen into.

I want to play, but the current meta is broken.

Edited by Lerajie, 02 June 2013 - 11:58 AM.